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    • #47374
      kens
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      Has anyone experience with the expansion of the XCB bullets?

      There is at least 2 guys looking into 35XCB for deer, how may they expect that small meplat to work out?

      Correct me if I am mistaken, but didn’t somebody recover some 30XCB at high velocity? What did the nose look like? What alloy & what medium? what speed?

      Is it fair to assume the 35cal version would look similar to the 30 as far as the nose is concerned?

       

    • #47383
      Goodsteel
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      It’s fair to assume that the 35 will mushroom even faster than the 30. A flat nose is not the end all be-all for game getting. You ever wonder how in the world deer tip over when you take your cast bullet, and wrap it with a super hard jacket? Pointed noses are fragile and easily manipulated, which is why round nose jacketed bullets penetrate deeper than spitzer’s of the same weight.

      I did conduct bullet recovery tests with the 30XCB, and I saw very “jacketed bullet” like expansion at 2400fps+ using water dropped linotype alloy. Nice mushroomed noses and it seemed the best range for expansion and weight retention with those 27BHN bullets was about 2600fps (kinda like a Sierra Gameking?) and that was with GLASS HARD CAST BULLETS. If you cast them out of softer alloy, you won’t be driving them as fast, but they will not need to be. Our cast bullets kind of regulate themselves. If you always make your bullets just hard enough to survive the trip down the barrel, then they will get the job done very well on game. Let us not forget the deer I shot with the RCBS35-200-FN at 2100fps cast of air cooled 50/50, in which I blew the front end of the deer to hamburger with one shot. Think about that. We are talking about a bullet that will be driven 2300FPS easily and you want a flat point on it? Ease up now, there’s a REASON I preach that the cast lead bullet is the most effective hunting projectile in the world.

      Long and the short of it is, I think you guys are way over thinking this, and trying to cram the XCB bullets in a conventional bullet method. I don’t see anybody filing a flat nose on their round balls for muzzle loading, and I don’t think you should file the noses on the XCB bullets.

      I’ve made you a good bullet gentlemen. Cast them out of 15BHN alloy, drive them at 2200fps, tuck it in their armpit, and tell me all about my design flaws while you’re eating your venison summer sausage. LOL!

    • #47385
      kens
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      No, not looking at design flaws, but understand XCB designed for cast high velocity and target accuracy.

      My basic question was will this bullet work on game application.

      You are indicating driving this at 15BHN @ 2200.

      Is that water quenched WW at 35Rem full house load?

    • #47388
      Goodsteel
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      I figure an alloy of about 15BHN will be perfect for 2300 FPS with the 35XCB bullet. I do think it’s going to perform perfectly on game at short ranges, and I do not think it will need any modifications whatsoever. It has a .080 flat nose as it is, and the spitzer shape is going to be damaged easily which will transfer energy into game animals at less than 100 yards.

      If you plan on making extended shots with it, things get tougher real quick because even though the bullet has a wonderful BC for a cast bullet, it’s still short and stubby compared to a jacketed bullet, and that takes it’s toll. At 100 yards, you still have 2000fps, and you’re golden. At 150 you have 1901 and you’re still in great shape. At 200, you have only 1775ish and the bullet will stop opening and start penciling through a deer (still just fine if you hit the vitals squarely). 250, you’re at 1650ish and you definitely needed to have a hollow point. 300 is 1550 and I hope you have an accurate load and a soft bullet with a HP. 350 yards and you are entering 357 magnum territory.

      The XCB bullets were designed to take game at 300 yards or less. If the speed were 2600 for the 35 and 2900 for the 30, this goal is very easily achieved. Reducing the speed necessitates taking game closer, but lets keep track of the overall picture here! Switching from 35XCB to 35 Remington basically means that what you would have gotten at 300 yards (1800FPS) you now can only achieve at 200 yards, but 200 yards is still quite a shot with a cast bullet, and you’d be hard pressed to make clean kills at longer distances no matter what bullet you use.

      My philosophy is you can’t eat what you can’t hit. The XCB bullets were simply designed to give you a handy edge. Speed is nice, but hitting the mark is paramount.

    • #47390
      kens
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      All my shots are likely to be inside 75 yards. it’s a brush gun.

      heck, 90% of all deer I ever shot were actually in bow range (and I dont have a bow)

      I will likely be 35Rem(xcb) at 40 yards

       

    • #47408
      Goodsteel
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      I would say you’re golden then. The XCB will perform flawlessly that close.

    • #47409
      kens
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      I thought the XCB was designed for hi velocity cast project.

      Am I mistaken that it was actually designed for hunting ?

    • #47414
      Goodsteel
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      Well, the basic objective was best stated by Larry Gibson when he expressed a desire to shoot Western antelope with cast bullets. Antelope are notoriously hard to sneak up on and 300 yard shots are common. This put that game squarely out of range of your typical cast bullet cartridges shooting brick shaped bullets at low velocity.  They simply do not have the precision, accuracy, or energy to make authoritative kills that far away on such small animals. In fact, the 45-70 or 405 Winchester using black powder are the only cartridges that seemed up to the task.

      The 30XCB project including bullets, cartridges, and reloading equipment was basically aimed at plugging that capability hole. The thought was, if a cast bullet was traveling at the same speed as jacketed, the bullets will perform in a very similar way, and they certainly do.

      This was the reason for the mantra “cast bullets made of ternary alloy (they have to expand when they get there instead of pencil through as a copper enriched bullet would), ten shot groups (you don’t get to call fliers on a wounded animal), 2 MOA or less (what’s the vitals of an antilope at 300 yards? 6” aught to just about cover it), with a speed greater than 2600 FPS (doesn’t do any good to get the bullet there without the energy required to make it pop open).

      You see, it’s all been about longer range hunting with cast from the very beginning. This is why it really didn’t matter if somebody got impressive groups at 100 yards but refused to test at 200 and 300. It really didn’t matter if somebody enriched their alloy with copper and made their bullets as hard as diamonds. It really didn’t matter if the speed was achieved with a bullet that would lose it’s energy so fast that it could not perform at 300. It didn’t matter if it was done with a 22 caliber somthingorother. It was always about actually extending the radius of effective hunting ranges on medium sized game, and THAT my friend is a very very hard thing to do when you get right down to it. Sure, you can blast a bullet over a chronograph at HV. Easy peasy! Especially if you don’t care about anything but speed. We were concerned with the whole enchilada. We were driven to bring precision, accuracy, energy, and terminal performance to the 300 yard line using cast bullets, and this is the design we did it with, and I dare say, noone I have ever spoken to or read about has done the same. Some have achieved the speed, but it was a test tube demonstration, only useful for snapping one’s suspenders over speed alone.

      Nowthen, the principles I based these designs on are only fully realized in a custom rifle made here at MBT (trust me, there are a LOT of details that need to be right) but that doesn’t mean that you can’t cherry pick the ones that are within easy reach to give yourself an advantage (such as using the bullet design in a standard low velocity cartridge) just bear in mind that if you take the racing slicks off Dale Jr.s car and put them on your Chevy truck, while you will get the specific advantages that component brings to the table, you will not be able to drive as fast as Dale, and you still have to function within the bounderies of the equipment you have enhanced. So in this case, you have to keep your shots closer so that you can still achieve the minimum terminal velocity required. Totally doable!

    • #47417
      kens
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      I see more clearly now.

      I did not realize that began as a 300yd game bullet. and you intend for it to deliver 2600fps @ 300 yd, AND expand on game out there. That’s a tall order for sure.

      But, I cannot get to 2600 anyway, since I am 35Rem, books tell me about 2000 tops. I guess I should go to a softer alloy than your XCB project. I only need to setup for 50yd shot with 35Rem.

      My local gun range has steel gongs at 300, 400, 500 yards, so that is totally on my bucket list also.

      It would interesting if you could post information on the alloy & speed required for 35xcb expansion in calibers (ie fps)

      35Rem, .358. 35Whelen. My thinking is that a hard bullet for 35Whelen expansion might be too hard for 35Rem due to slower velocity.

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