- September 27, 2016 at 7:38 pm #30323
I could care less about being banned from CBF but I really have a beef with the mods there allowing me to be quoted and now not having a chance to assist or explain. Case in point is the fellow wanting to build a 14″ twist upper for an AR dedicated to cast bullets. None of the remaining “experts” there are clarifying my advise to use that twist. Said advise is some years old and predicated on the prevalent cast bullets of 50 – 60 gr available back then. The OP wanting to build that 14″ twist upper apparently is wanting to use the #221 Saeco cast bullet. It is a long 62 gr bullet which may be too long for proper stabilization in a 14″ twist, especially with a 20″ barrel. I do not know the length of that bullet but stabilization is primarily based on bullet length not weight. Another CBF member back then took my advise and built a 14″ twist AR. He was then talked into getting a custom group by mould for a heavier long cast bullet by the designer of that bullet. The 14″ twist rifle would not stabilized that longer heavier bullet even though I told him it was too long. I was severely criticized by the bullet designer for recommending that twist on the CBF regardless that he recommended a bullet unsuitable for that twist.
I’m asking if anyone has access to the CBF forum if they would PM the OP of that thread and ask him to come to this site and PM me. I will explain to him the correct information he needs before he orders a 12 or 14″ twist barrel. Just trying to help another cast bullet shooter who is not getting the correct information through no fault of his own. Thanks in advance.
- September 27, 2016 at 8:07 pm #30324AnonymousInactive
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You’re going to have to get a little more definitive, there are many threads concerning 14″ twist and AR’s help me out with Which thread.
- September 27, 2016 at 8:25 pm #30325
Sorry, my bad
Sub forumforum: Loads/Military Rifles
Thread: AR cast plinker 1:14 barrel twist?
- September 27, 2016 at 8:42 pm #30326AnonymousInactive
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have copied your message and PM’d the OP.
- September 27, 2016 at 9:45 pm #30328AnonymousInactive
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I did the same
- September 27, 2016 at 10:05 pm #30330
Done. Just sent him a PM on CBF to contact you here for clarification.
- September 28, 2016 at 11:30 am #30338
Yeah, it’s me, the OP of the CBF thread regarding assemblage of a 1:12 vs 1:14, AR15 upper for cast bullet shooting.
I have been searching around the innerwebs for days, scrounging information and opinions regarding these topics, but it is scant, in regard to the 1:14 twist and cast.
I posted *sanitized* information from several sources, some of which was from Larry (please take that as a complement).
I mentioned Larry’s name in the OP (probably a mistake) but did not specify him as the specific source of quotes I included.
I suppose it was obviously Larry, to anyone who knows him or has read his forum posts.
Now that I’ve said *I* as often as the President…please allow me to give some detailed background and *I* will endeavor to be succinct:
I’ve been casting and loading for rifles (other than AR15) for several years.
I’ve had success with cast (Saeco 221) in a 1:9 barrelled AR15 with a couple powders.
I want to build a dedicated A2 upper for irons sight practice and shoot cast at ranges of 25 to 100 yds (sometimes 200).
I chose a 1:12 twist as optimal for this project.
Other than used Colt barrels going for $225 to $550, availability of 1:12 barrels with the FSB pinned and ready to go is sparse.
I found a supplier local to me that supplies Green Mountain pencil barrels with pinned FSB and placed a backorder for the 12 twist.
Numerous weeks later, I noticed they also had some GM 1:14 twist pencils on Gunbroker for the same price and in stock!
Hence, my quest for information on the 14 twist tubes.
So, yesterday afternoon, I talked with the local supplier (who already has my money and charges 20% for order cancellation) and he agrees to send one of their 14 twist barrels instead.
This, after learning they will not get any more *retro* 12 twist pencil barrels until possibly next year.
In conclusion, I hope to receive a 14 twist barrel within a week or two and assemble my iron sight, light weight, cast bullet upper.
I also hope to make it shoot with the Saeco 221, which by the way is .6845″ in length, .2245″ in diameter and weighs ~63 grains, dressed for the dance.
I am not averse to finding another mold which will be a better fit to my circumstances but I’d rather not as I really like the Saeco mold.
So that’s the story.
I miss many of the *old posters* on CBF and hope I didn’t ruffle any feathers by posting unattributed Larry quotes.
Larry, if you would like me to edit my thread in any way, just say the word.
Thanks for the help and for reading my post.
- September 28, 2016 at 12:03 pm #30339
TenTea, welcome to the Goodsteel Forum. You’ll like it here.
- September 28, 2016 at 4:44 pm #30353GoodsteelKeymaster
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Welcome to GSF TenTea. I think you’ll find that when you want solid answers from people who have been there, done that, and can speak intelligently on the subject with limited postulation and theoretical results that never really pan out, this is a very productive place to ask the question.
We are blessed to have a membership that is heavily populated by men who have spent their entire lives pursuing extreme marksmanship, reloading, gunsmithing, and cast bullet excellence.
Glad to see you here!
- September 28, 2016 at 10:30 pm #30366
Welcome to the goodsteel forum. As I stated earlier the choice of the 14″ twist for the 223 cartridge with a cast bullet was based on the then consideration of the usual cast bullets upwards of 58 – 60 gr not exceeding .620 in length. That puts the 225462 at the top end which will be fully stable in a 14″ twist at 1900 – 2000 fps. The Saeco #221 and most of the newer designs with long bore riding noses are heavier and longer. The #221 at .685 in length will only be “marginally stable” at 2000+ fps. Of course the faster you drive it up to full potential in the 223 cartridge the close it comes to being stable. However, there are other factors with cast bullets, especially those with long bore riding noses, that can adversely affect accuracy above 2000 fps. The only way to know if the now on the way 14″ twist barrel will adequately stabilize the Saeco #221 is to try it……..well we all knew that anyways. As an example I’ve shot a bajillion Hornady 55 gr SXs in .222 Rems at 3100 fps with excellent varmint accuracy to 500 yds. Using the Miller Stability formula that SX bullet (.693 length) bullet is marginally with an Sg of 1.2 (a 1.0 or below is unstable and 1.4 and above is stable). The Saeco 221 out of a 14″ twist at 2000 fps gives a 1.22 Sg factor. If the Saeco 221 does stabilize and meets your expectations then great, if not then I suggest you try the NOE version of the 225462. It is an excellent bullet for use in ARs as I have been using it in ARs and Mini14s for 40+ years. I also have used it in the past with excellent results in several 14″ twist 222 Rems and do so currently in 14″ twist 22 Hornets and 223 Rems.
Absolutely no need to edit your posts on CBF. I just wanted you to understand the situation with my 14″ twist suggestion I made on that forum numerous years ago.
Thanks for responding over here and, again, welcome.
- September 29, 2016 at 5:18 pm #30387DeadWoodDanParticipant
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and this is why I like it here! WELCOME TenTea. In the good days when all questions,suggestions, comments and different opinions were kept under the same roof, now we just have to use multiple sites and well those who aren’t opened minded can stay in the dark.
- September 29, 2016 at 11:17 pm #30398Sgt. MikeParticipant
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The 1-14twist is no slouch in that bore size. and on the subject of buying a mold I am a enabler sometimes. here is a link to a brand new mold
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=24_116 BTW I would recommend the 5 cavity for something like a AR $99.00 is cheap enough
- September 29, 2016 at 11:42 pm #30400
There are enablers on all gun related forums!
I was perusing the NOE webpage (again) this morning, but for some reason I seem to think I need a brass mould (out of stock) rather than al-u-minium, if I go that direction.
Hard to believe, I’ve owned aluminum moulds in the past but never cast with them.
Never owned or used a brass mould but they are appealing somehow.
- September 30, 2016 at 12:31 am #30402
I have several of both brass and aluminum. Just like women, they have different characteristics, traits, personalities, etc. In the past I preferred brass, but as I grow older I’m leaning towards aluminum because of less fatigue when casting. Both work well when treated right. I do love the color of brass. They are a bit more durable, but you can still mess them up. When it comes to NOE, I don’t think you can go wrong with either choice of material.
- September 30, 2016 at 3:48 am #30408GoodsteelKeymaster
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I love my brass molds, but I’ll buy aluminum too. Matter of fact, I just got one from NOE in the mail today. Four cav aluminum.
I think the number of cavities is a more important choice than the material used. I like the brass molds for my very most prenium bullets, but they are harder to cast with.
- October 18, 2016 at 7:05 pm #30768
Follow Up, because I despise abandoned and broken promise (to return) threads…
First time out.
1:14 Green Mountain barrel is affixed to an A2 upper and irons are blackened with carbide.
The lower has a rifle buffer and spring installed with a carbine buffer and spring on stand by, if needed.
My 2 loads with the Saeco 221 were 14 grains of RL-7 and 20 grains of IMR 4895 in Winchester brass and a CCI primer.
Initial testing and sight in was with some M193 – 55 grain fmj fodder at 50 yards with groups hovering just over an inch and some minor right windage needed.
Next was a switch to M855 – 62 grain fmj stuff and an amazing arc of perfect bullet profile keyholes appeared and about a foot wide for a 5 round group!
Never seen anything exactly like that.
I guess 55 grains is the FMJ limit with this barrel twist – HAHA!
So, the RL-7 load grouped under 1-3/4 inches @ 50 yards – rested – for a 15 round group, but did not always eject or chamber the next round and no bolt hold open.
These may have worked with the carbine buffer and spring but I didn’t try.
The IMR4895 load grouped about 1-1/2 inches @ 50 yards – rested – for a 20 round group and ejected, chambered and held the bolt open…that is good enough for me at this time.
I got out my camera but the battery was dead…call it lack of foresight on my part.
Next time out will stretch to 100 yards with the Saeco bullets, get the sights dialed in closer and commence to offhand practice.
I’ve proved it can be done (never a doubt) and I look forward to trying out some other loads as time allows
Finer load development will occur, maybe next spring.
Thanks for the tech data, sugestions and encouragement, guys.
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