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    • #27663
      Larry Gibson
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      From the OP of the “had a mishap with the 6.5 Swede” thread on CBF;

      One thing I did that I had never done before with this caliber and petload was using COW filler. Now, would this cause the pressure to go high enough to have something like this happen, could be. I usually do it for pet loads in larger cases and won’t ever do it again with the Swedish. Also, perhaps my brass was overused. I will head up to my gunsmith and see what solution he has for me.
      Thanks to all for your ideas. Will follow up on this
      . “

      And he wonders why the case head blew out!..:eek:……….let us count the ways he failed to follow simple and safe reloading practices………..:rolleyes:

      Larry Gibson

    • #27664
      Larry Gibson
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      He probably better hope Tim isn’t his “gunsmith”……..

    • #27670
      Artful
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      Gee, only time I used COW was with bullseye for case forming.

    • #27671
      Daniel
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      I do not understand the penchant for wanting drastically reduced loads in a high power rifle case. If one wants less recoil and less performance, get a smaller caliber. A 6.5 Sweed is not a .25-20. The Cream of Wheat boy surely spoiled a nice rifle.

    • #27677
      uber7mm
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      Artful;n6632 wrote: Gee, only time I used COW was with bullseye for case forming.

      Done correctly, this is a safe procedure. A bi-product is is slight odor of burnt wheat.

    • #27683
      oldblinddog
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      Daniel;n6633 wrote: I do not understand the penchant for wanting drastically reduced loads in a high power rifle case. If one wants less recoil and less performance, get a smaller caliber.

      It is difficult to carry two (or more) firearms in the field.

      Daniel;n6633 wrote: A 6.5 Sweed is not a .25-20.

      It can be if loaded properly.

    • #27697
      Larry Gibson
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      The lesson (hard learned by the OP) is that COW is a very poor filler for reduced loads. Yes I know some use it extensively in straight walled cases such as the 45-70 (actually a tapered case) but my extensive pressure testing for some fellows on CBF demonstrated it does raise the psi a significant amount, sometimes to unsafe levels for certain actions. It also can cake inside the case and raise the psi even more. If it hardens/cakes enough (usually in more humid climates) it grabs the case walls and pulls them forward on firing leading to case separation.

      In bottle necked cases the rise in psi can be catastrophic as the OP found out with his 6.5 Swede. As mentioned it is a good filler to use for fire forming cases where just enough of a fast burning powder is used to form the cases and the cases are loaded and fired within a day or two. Absolutely no bullet or hard object should be used to retain the COW in the case. I use a tuft of Dacron or if the caliber is small a smear of bullet lube.

      The use of fillers is perfectly fine under some circumstances in cartridges such as the 6.5 Swede. I’ve used Dacron for years quite successfully with some powders in cast bullet loads in the 6.5 Swede. With other powders (notably the fast burners such as Bullseye and Unique) I do not use a filler. I’ve also extensively tested 2 other commercial fillers. This was all extensively covered in the “Milk Jug” thread and my own thread on HV loads in the 6.5 Swede on CBF. Don’t know if those are still there as the powers that be have purged a lot of my posts/threads over there. I’ll post again my recommendation for the use of a file (Dacron). Using this method of when to use and when not to use a filler (I only use Dacron anymore) I’ve fired many thousands of such loads with complete satisfaction and having pressure tested the loads I have found no indication of pressure problems;

      I have for many, many years found dacron (polyester fill) to be the best “filler”. I use a filler only when appropriate. Many think I always use a filler with every powder….I DO NOT!!!! The use of the filler can cause problems if not used correctly and when appropriate. If the powder is not correct for the bullet/cartridge combination then the filler is not going to make it “right”. Many want to use a specific powder for a cartridge because the powder is “cheap” or because “they have a lot of it”. There are lots of powders that are not only poor choices to use but that can be dangerous if used in an inappropriate bullet/cartridge combination. Do yourself a favor if you are wanting to use an inappropriate powder (usually “no data” available is an indication the powder might be inappropriate) and get an appropriate powder. You will save yourself a lot of frustration. The use of the dacron filler only makes an appropriate powder perform better. The dacron filler will not make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

      Also many do not understand the difference between a “wad” and a “filler”. A wad is a material pushed down on the powder to hold it in position against the flash hole. There is a gap between the wad and the base of the bullet. A “filler” fills the entire space between the powder and the base of the bullet. The filler will not move under recoil or rough handling of the cartridges. The use of a appropriate filler prevents migration of the powder through or around it.

      I don’t use the dacron filler or a wad with the fast to medium burning “fast” pistol /shotgun type powders. I find one of these fast burning powders that is fast enough to ignite and burn efficiently at the velocity I want and avoid using a filler with them.

      I almost always use the dacron filler in rifle cases with the slower “fast” burning powders (4227, 4759, 5744, 4198, etc. with lighter medium weight bullets for the cartridge; i.e. 140 – 165 gr bullets in .30/.31 cals of 30-30 through ’06 case capacity), the medium burning powders (RL7, 3031, 4895, etc.) up through the slow burning powders (RL19, AA4350, H4831SC, RL22, 3100, etc.) that give around 80% or less loading density under medium to heavy weight bullets for the cartridge; i.e. 170 – 220+ gr bullets in .30/.31 cals. Those examples are for the .30/.31 cals but the same guidance applies to other calibers. The dacron filler is used only between the powder and base of the bullet.

      The “dacron” is polyester fill as commonly found in pillows and toys. It also comes in sheets called “batting”. It can be obtained very reasonably at most any fabric store.

      The dacron batting comes in various thicknesses. I prefer that which is about 5/8″ thick. My wife recently bought me 10 yards which will give many, many thousands of cast bullet loads. With this current batch of batting I cut it initially across the width into strips about 3/4″ wide. I then “eyeball” cut 1/2″ wide chunks which is close to 3/4 gr.

      A smaller chunk is cut for 1/2 gr and larger for a larger amount. I’ve cut some chunks that weight 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 grs and have them in a “snack” baggie stuck on a poster board above my loading bench for quick reference when I need to cut new chunks. The batting will run thin and thick throughout the sheet so I again just “eyeball it” based on the thickness of the batting when cutting the chunks.

      Pretty extensive tests have demonstrated that the weight of the filler does not have to be exact, only close. What is important is that there is enough so that it “fills” the space between powder and bullet. A little too much hurts nothing but too little poses problems. That’s why I have the different size “chunks” so I can use the right size for the case capacity I am filling. For example; with most medium burning powders (3031, 4895, 4064) in and ’06 to function an M1 a 3/4 gr dacron filler is about right. With slower powders that give a higher loading density like 4831 a 1/2 gr filler is about right.

      I use a section of .22 cal cleaning rod in cartridges of .30 – .375 cal to push the Dacron chunk inside the case just so it is all in. The 6 to 10″ section gives plenty to hold onto and sufficient “feel”. Merely hold the chunk of dacron over the case mouth and shove it in with the rod. Sometimes it takes a couple three pokes to ensure all is inside the case mouth. I poke the chunks in until all the dacron is at the bottom of the neck or at least all in the case. It doesn’t matter exactly where just so long as you don’t tamp it down on the powder as a wad and leaved a space between the base of the bullet and the dacron.

      What you want to do is push it in to let the base of the bullet finish pushing it down and adding any compression against the powder. Thus I do not push it down on the powder but let the bullet do that when the bullet is seated. Using the right size chunk of dacron this method then provides a “filler” in the air space between the powder and base of the bullet.

      A small length of coat hanger works for the .22-7mm cartridges and an unsharpened pencil works well for .45 cals. With the charged cases in a loading block I simply hold the chunk of dacron over the case mouth and push it in with the rod. It is quite easy and a lot of “precision is not required, just get the dacron into the case and let the bullet finish pushing it down.

      Larry Gibson

    • #27706
      Daniel
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      oldblinddog;n6645 wrote:

      It is difficult to carry two (or more) firearms in the field.

      It can be if loaded properly.

      A Cadillac De Ville will make into an off road vehicle too if…. I am 70 years old and have spent a lifetime afield. Have yet to carry two firearms to take my game.

    • #27710
      chutesnreloads
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      Thanks for that detailed explanation Larry.Seems I’ve been loading with wads rather than fillers.Only thing “bad” happening from it was 5744 performing poorly with wads in 45-70.Same load without a wad worked quite well .Time to rework up some loads.

    • #27718
      oldblinddog
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      The point is not having to carry two, but having a small game load in a pocket for those unforeseen occurrences.

    • #27720
      Sgt. Mike
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      Larry Gibson;n6624 wrote: From the OP of the “had a mishap with the 6.5 Swede” thread on CBF;

      One thing I did that I had never done before with this caliber and petload was using COW filler. Now, would this cause the pressure to go high enough to have something like this happen, could be. I usually do it for pet loads in larger cases and won’t ever do it again with the Swedish. Also, perhaps my brass was overused. I will head up to my gunsmith and see what solution he has for me.
      Thanks to all for your ideas. Will follow up on this
      . “

      And he wonders why the case head blew out!..:eek:……….let us count the ways he failed to follow simple and safe reloading practices………..:rolleyes:

      Larry Gibson

      Hmmm and others call me too cautious when somebody says “it’ll be fun add a little of this and to that , no accurate measurement needed or rule of thumb as a guide, just a man pinch of this assemble shoot… huh it blew up your doing it wrong, I’m safe I been doing this for years, !!!”
      Little wonder why I said bye from there.
      maybe I should mosey over there and read the ole boy’s thread ……..

    • #27726
      Sgt. Mike
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      I had made some comments earlier and deleted as they was in my opinion pretty negative about the practice of Cream of Wheat as a filler. Hence I deleted the comments.

      I would say that this method ( shotgun buffer included) should be approached with extreme caution.
      Remember that an old method of case forming is Cream of wheat over a fast burning powder.
      If this combo produces enough pressure to form the cases, it stands to reason that placing a bullet on top of that would double or triple that pressure. Just a thought.

    • #27739
      dragon813gt
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      Sgt. Mike;n6692 wrote: If this combo produces enough pressure to form the cases, it stands to reason that placing a bullet on top of that would double or triple that pressure. Just a thought.

      Common sense would lead a somewhat intelligent individual to the same conclusion. But many people lack common sense these days.

    • #27742
      Sgt. Mike
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      Hey I’m somewhat intelligent wooohoooo

      OK guys thought it would be funny to say and do that on Dragon’s post … I’ll return to serious now..

      I’ll agree with you Sir, the common thing about common sense is it isn’t common

    • #27746
      uber7mm
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      Larry,

      Can you elaborate on chamber ringing and other pitfalls associated with improper usages of Dacron filler?

      Thanks in advance.

    • #27826
      oldblinddog
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