This topic contains 21 replies, has 1 voice, and was last updated by  Butch Wax 2 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #33389
     Rattlesnake Charlie 
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    An e-mail I subscribe to federalpremium@vistaoutdoor.com today that is titled Predator into Prey led me to a page where they actually wrote: “… stokes his coyote shotgun with Vital-Shok High Density 00 buckshot–a load his team recently used to take a coyote at 83 yards.”

    The load is 9 pellets of 00 buck at 1600 fps with a Flitecontrol wad. While this might be a good buckshot load, I personally think that shooting at coyotes at 83 yards with 00 buck is irresponsible and unethical. I am sure they wound more than they humanely take. Here is the link to the article:
    https://www.federalpremium.com/premium_moments/Stories.aspx?title=Strikeout+Coyotes

    Articles like this lead to a lot of people taking shots they never should. I know that coyotes are “vermin”, and I grew up killing all that we could. But, IMHO we are still obligated to make a harvest as humanely as possible. Yeah, this one got me a little fired up.

  • #33390
     JPHolla 
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    How are you sure they wound more than they humanely take?

  • #33391
     WCM 
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    I have never been a fan of #00 Buck.
    I keep all my house guns loaded with #4 buck.

    I have never liked buckshot for game but my neighbor use it in dense brush out to 50 yds.

  • #33392
     Rattlesnake Charlie 
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    JPHolla;n14090 wrote: How are you sure they wound more than they humanely take?

    I’ve not patterned this particular load. But I’ve never patterned a 00 buckshot load yet (including the best Federal had about 5 years back) that did not have holes that a coyote could slip through unscathed at much past 40 yards. I tried like a dozen flavors in several shotguns and different chokes. I was looking for the best for self-defense. My criteria was at least six pellets inside a twelve inch circle (vitals of a two-legged varmint). Only one load, Federal Premium out of only one shotgun, a Remington Express with a smoothbore barrel with rifle sights that had a fixed improved cylinder choke, made it to 30 yards. Now a coyote has a relatively small body under all that fur. The only shotgun round I have found that will take them reliably out to 50 yards is one of the special loads like Dead Coyote using T-buck. There just aren’t enough pellets in 00 loads to make it a consistent killer much past 30 yards. Go out and pattern your shotgun and see for yourself. BTW, I’ve killed coyotes with 00 buck. Switched to 4-buck and success went way up. BB and T-buck are even better. A big coyote seldom weights more than 40 lbs.

    Yeah, just my personal opinion. I do intent to pattern some of these loads before the snow melts. I’ll post results.

  • #33398
     GhostHawk 
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    JPHolla;n14090 wrote: How are you sure they wound more than they humanely take?

    Do you know what the pattern size would be for a OO buck load at that range? I doubt you could get all the buckshot into a pickup truck at that range.
    How then do you expect more than 1 pellet to hit and cleanly kill the yote?

    Think about it.

    At 30 to 40 yards it probably is a good yote killer but at double that range someone is being irresponsible.and unethical in my opinion.
    Disagree,that is fine, you have the right to do so.
    But I question your judgement. Which calls into question everything about you.

  • #33399
     Screwbolts 
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    Divided we fall united we stand.

    Ken

  • #33400
     Rattlesnake Charlie 
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    I just ordered 7 boxes of the subject ammo from Natchez, all they had in stock. I hope it is good as it cost $13.99 for each box of 5. If the weather is good the weekend of March 17 – 20 I’ll do some patterning.

  • #33401
     kens 
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    As velocity goes up, shotgun patterning gets wider and bigger.
    At their said 1600fps, and 80yds, I doubt they could hit a woodshed.
    Shotgun choke can actually be adjusted with velocity, that is, slow down the load and get a tighter choke pattern.
    The name of the game in shotguns is to hit target with a bunch of pellets, not just one high speed pellet or buck.

  • #33404
     Goodsteel 
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    I feel the same way about rats. They simply should not be shot at unless you are assured of a humane kill shot. I prefer to wait for the perfect behind the shoulder shot when the rat pauses in the quintessential stance on his hind legs with a piece of my home’s electric wire in his pearly white teeth. As the electricity flickers inside the house, and far away, I hear my wife screaming to kill the diseased vermin, sometimes I just won’t take the shot because it doesn’t feel right and I couldn’t live with a suffering animal on my conscience………..

    ……and if you believe that, I’ve got some oceanfront property to sell you.

    There’s hunting, and then there’s pest control. The ethics are adjusted for each in my opinion.

  • #33405
     Screwbolts 
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    Rattlesnake Charlie;n14106 wrote: I just ordered 7 boxes of the subject ammo from Natchez, all they had in stock. I hope it is good as it cost $13.99 for each box of 5. If the weather is good the weekend of March 17 – 20 I’ll do some patterning.

    Will you be using the shotgun and choke used in the first paragraph of post 1, will your tested ammo be of the same lot as used to harvest coyote?

  • #33406
     Harter 
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    I have zero experience with coyote killing . I shot 1 with a bow about 45 yds out the dinning room window once . Hit it a little too far back but it was a double lung pass through and the 50 mph Freightliner fixed any problems the arrow may have caused . The other was cleanly retired at 40 odd yes with an 1.065 oz of B steel tip toeing around 1500 fps that consistently placed 97-99 of 105 pellets inside 27″ at 40 yd . It took 4 pellets through and through ran 50 yd made 3 turns and piled up .

    Choke design makes a huge difference in how big a circle the shot holds . Grab a box of the elcheapo dove and quail loads your old model 12 mod , the kids new 870 with a mod choke screwed in an a Browning Steel Special field . Now I’m goin out on a limb but the trap will edge a field gun with the M12 over the standard Remchoke but the Browning will hold a more dense pattern of the 3 or 4 . The choke in the Steel Special barrel is at least 10″ long w/o any short step at the muzzle .
    With steel shot in the Steel Special barrel the harder you drive it the tighter the pattern gets . The longer extended nonported screw in chokes , at least the 2 guns and 2 chokes I tried , tend the same way with steel shot . I’ve read lots of tests with 00-000B but haven’t done any , so grain of salt . 00B typically holds better patterns with less choke . Any wad or charge rotation will open a pattern up fast . Angled wad slits are enough to induce rotation . Square slits and charge wraps will eliminate the rotation, buffers make better patterns also .
    The flight lock wad is a rediculously rigid wad that is designed to “slam on the brakes” in the choke . It actually has airbrakes that in theory causes a square rather than flaired release of the typical wad …..So says the advertisement .

    Shot charge release and pattern control are whole disciplines .

  • #33408
     Butch Wax 
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    Standing orders and Code of Conduct and Operations in the PD stated to avoid shooting at suspects beyond 35yds with a shotgun to lessen the chance of collateral damage from the shot spread. Remington 870’s and Mossberg 500’s loaded with Remington 2 3/4″ 00Buck.

    I too train still to shoot “Minute of Chest Cavity” and we’re talking a 9″ paper plate type target. For deer at about 5″, and coyotes around 3″ to 4″ at best for heart/lung shots. Course I’m talking rifles of modest power or pistols. I don’t use monster magnums with explosive bullets to make wounds like asteroid craters. Those can make up for poor marksmanship as some clowns that shouldn’t really be “hunting” use. Those idiots are the ones that do no credit to all the safe and worthwhile hunters of this land. Common sense ALWAYS dictates be aware of what’s beyond your intended target no matter the environment.

  • #33410
     WCM 
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    I have always tried to humanely dispatch any animal I had the job of killing no matter what.
    Just a code of ethics I was taught growing up from my father and grandfather.
    Looking back on life I killed a lot of stuff I wish I had not killed,and would not kill presently.

    It was just where I was at that point in life.

  • #33411
     Rattlesnake Charlie 
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    Sounds like we sailed in the same boat.

  • #33412
     Rattlesnake Charlie 
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    Of course. I have access to anything important. All I have to do is click the heels of my ruby red cowboy boots!

  • #33414
     GhostHawk 
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    WCM & Rattlesnake, been there and done that. I was sliding into my mid 40’s when I lost the taste for killing just for the joy of killing. And of course when that happened I pretty much had to have a good reason to kill anything after that.

    Yes there are some things I shot in the past that I wish I could go back and undo.
    Fact of life.

    There are also some things I did not shoot that I am glad now I did not.

    We do change, it just happens slowly over time on this journey from the cradle to the grave.

  • #33415
     WCM 
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    My neighbor has never out grown his thirst for blood.
    He is 67 and still loves to kill just for the sake of killing.

  • #33417
     Goodsteel 
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    WCM;n14119 wrote:

    • My neighbor has never out grown his thirst for blood.
    • He is 67 and still loves to kill just for the sake of killing

    Now that’s just wrong.

  • #33420
     WCM 
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    I am telling you the truth though.
    He loves killing.

    I am more of a target shooter these days.
    I kill nothing that I don’t plan to eat except armadillos, wild hogs , coyotes, and crows.

  • #33424
     Rattlesnake Charlie 
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    My brother no longer even shoots at coyotes, even though they surround his entire bovine estate. And, that ain’t much to surround. I hope to take a week off at Easter to alter things. This past deer season was the worst in many years, even the state biologists came up empty handed in my area. And, at this point, there is NO evidence that CWD is a factor. In the past, every farmer/rancher shot at every coyote in sight. Nowadays, there are many vacant farmsteads. Nature takes it’s course. Evolution is at work.

  • #33427
     WCM 
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    Rattlesnake Charlie;n14145 wrote: My brother no longer even shoots at coyotes, even though they surround his entire bovine estate. And, that ain’t much to surround. I hope to take a week off at Easter to alter things. This past deer season was the worst in many years, even the state biologists came up empty handed in my area. And, at this point, there is NO evidence that CWD is a factor. In the past, every farmer/rancher shot at every coyote in sight. Nowadays, there are many vacant farmsteads. Nature takes it’s course. Evolution is at work.

    I have actually never killed a Coyote, but they are on the list of animal I would dispatch.Coyotes move in packs so kill one pack and another moves in to take their place.
    Just now killed a opossum for stealing cat food.
    I would trap them in a live trap and haul them off, but I catch the cats instead.

    Opossum stay at a cat or dog food bowl until you remove them.

    I only kill rattlesnakes around the house or barn. I figure they kill lots of rats and I have more problems with rats destroying things around my farm.

  • #33431
     Butch Wax 
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    Hogs ,coyotes, armadillos, moles, skunks, and all snakes are number one primary targets on my place out in the woods. I’ve killed water moccasins 4′ and bigger that were right outside the door! But I’ve got raccoons, possoms, squirrels, birds, rabbits, foxes, and whitetail all living here that are “protected critters”. But that earlier list are all shoot on sight and they get blasted with anything I got. Kinda like VC, Varmint Cong. 😉

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