This topic contains 24 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  kens 9 months, 1 week ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #47202
     kens 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 54
    • Comments: 520
    • Overall: 574

    Does anyone have ideas good or bad about using a cast TC bullet for hunting?

    Does a TC bullet qualify itself as a large meplat style?  (i.e. hunting style)

    Will it mushroom & expand? will it give penetration?

    I’m referring to whitetail deer here.

  • #47203
     GhostHawk 
    Participant
    • Silver
    • ★★
    • Posts: 2
    • Comments: 258
    • Overall: 260

    “Will it mushroom & expand? will it give penetration?”

     

    Depends on what it is made of and how fast it is being pushed.

    You could also ask “will it blow up?”

     

    With any cast bullet, those are the variables. It is all about the specifics. Go shoot a milk jug and start finding out.

     

     

     

     

  • #47204
     Harter 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 69
    • Comments: 776
    • Overall: 845

    More details please .
    The Lee 452-255 @ 265gr wasn’t a bad answer for hogs but the 454424 was a better answer at 1100 fps out of a 45 Colts carbine . Of course those started out with all but a half inch hole .

    I don’t think I’d trust the 357-124 TC shoved along at 2500 fps out of 358 Win , it seems like that would be asking for a bullet to make a splash divot .

    A Seaco rifle design might be good though .

  • #47206
     kens 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 54
    • Comments: 520
    • Overall: 574

    I’m working with a 45 muzzleloader, trying different .45acp bullets, cast soft, and a drilled hollow base.

    My next attempt is to be the Lee 45acp TC.

    The Lee 200gr FN was only mediocre stabilization.

    I have not had any type of solid base stabilize at all

  • #47207
     kens 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 54
    • Comments: 520
    • Overall: 574

    Just got back from the range.

    The Lee 452-230 TC, with my drilled hollow base, over 55gr FFFG, is quite the shooter!!!

    I was just amazed at it. I pan greased it with a mix of crisco, candle wax & beeswax. Loaded them bare.

    This is quite a round for a 1:66 twist barrel. I been drilling the hollow base by eyeball on the lathe, maybe with this new found excitement, I’ll rig up a micrometer depth of hollw base.

  • #47211
     popper 
    Participant
    • Silver
    • ★★
    • Posts: 1
    • Comments: 289
    • Overall: 290

    Got a pig awhile back with cast 165gr tc in 40SW @ 25 yds.  Hit the rear and exit through the jaw, broke a leg on the way.  Friends use 9mm 115 rn factory and need several hits to bring them down,  one said he was going to change to the 40 tc.  Big meplat does the job.

  • #47212
     Glenn 
    Participant
    • Silver
    • ★★
    • Posts: 29
    • Comments: 176
    • Overall: 205

    Have you thought about the Lee Hollow base Minie? They come as a 450 or 454.

    They might be too long, but has a nice fat meplat

    https://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/black-powder-molds/black-powder-minie-bullet-molds

    • #47214
       kens 
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 54
      • Comments: 520
      • Overall: 574

      Yes I have looked at those, I am afraid to spend any money on the mold because they are heavy and I got such a slow twist.

      I have a 160gr minie that doesnt shoot.

      I have a couple flavors of 45acp bullet that I drilled hollow base and they try to fly straight. The lee 45-230Tc is the winner thus far. The ACP bullets are loose in the bore, so I just got back from the fabric store with some thin muslin cotton to try a light patch.

  • #47216
     Harter 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 69
    • Comments: 776
    • Overall: 845

    I have a 454613 that is a 280 RF HB Minnie style bullet .
    I’d lend it to you to try with the usual provisions .
    I also have Lee HB ML bullet I’d lend for a trial .

  • #47218
     kens 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 54
    • Comments: 520
    • Overall: 574

    One of the problems I have with molds for this project is:

    Lee is pretty good about the muzzleloading mold market, except, they don’t indicate mold dimensions very well, and don’t indicate what twist is for their molds. I even called Lee and got a tech on the phone, he couldn’t VERIFY what twist works and what doesn’t.

    Lyman molds do not follow the numbering protocol of .dia-weight for the part number. You mention above that you have a 454613.

    Is that a .454 dia & 613 weight?? hollow base?

    I’m using a muzzleloader, therefore soft lead. Looking at mold catalogs, most all list COWW as standard alloy, therefore my size & weight is different.

    In a bolt action .308 gun a standard barrel is .300×308″. Not so in muzzleloading. These barrels come in a plethora of bore/groove and twists. For my old school Douglas barrels, a 45acp bullet loads loosely down the bore, I need about .452. The other option is to go smaller like .440 and patch it. Since there is no such thing as a .44 pistol bullet, I guess I have to beagle a 45acp mold, then hollow base it.

    my bore groove is 451/475 1:66 twist. I didnt think I would be is such an undocumented territory here, there is nothing weird about this barrel, its size has been around a long long time.

  • #47219
     Harter 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 69
    • Comments: 776
    • Overall: 845

    Mine is actually 454 dia . The design is the 2nd half and designates the # of the cherry used cut the original mould starting at 1 later changed to 001 . Then they skipped a few numbers in the 100s and reassigned old numbers to new completely different bullets .454613

    The Lee mould is similar .
    This one weighs 280 something . I think this is a lost number mould as it is more often referred to as a 260 gr HB bullet for BP Colts.

  • #47220
     Rattlesnake Charlie 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 140
    • Comments: 665
    • Overall: 805

    Something to consider:

    I have shot four deer with a .45 cal ML using a roundball over 90 gr of FFg. All dropped dead quite soon, and in every case the VERY flattened ball was found under the skin on the far side. Three dropped where they were shot. One went about 30 yards. Can’t ask for much more. BTW, all were muleys 160 – 210 lbs.

    A fast stepping round ball of pure lead is very lethal. You may not need to look any further.

  • #47222
     kens 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 54
    • Comments: 520
    • Overall: 574

    I shot 2 deer with roundball and both got away. The first one was my own fault, the second is too long a story.

    Anyway, I want vindication. ML season is here in 2 weeks. I got a very mature 10point to pose for his pic on my trail cam.

    Another gent told me to just load 2 roundballs and be done with it. The Lee 452TC drilled hollow base shoots extremely well, but Im unsure about it expanding.

    I have a 160gr minie that doesnt shoot well, and it was made for ML. I am thinking that the lighter the minie the better it will shoot out of slow twist, but this is not holding true. Likewise the heavier the minie, the faster twist you need, correct?? So far, my experiment of taking 230gr acp bullets and drilling about 30gr out of a hollow base seems to be working.  As of now, my 1:66 twist is doing OK with a hollow base about 200gr, and the TC doing quite well.

    Except!!! the TC loads loose, I am afraid to point the muzzle down, it might fall out !!!!!

  • #47223
     Rattlesnake Charlie 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 140
    • Comments: 665
    • Overall: 805

    Minnies do not fit tight by design. You can gain some assurance of it staying in position by keeping the muzzle up most of the time as I do with ML shotgun loaded with shot and card wads. But, if you have not been doing that previously it will take a while to change old habits. Don’t overlook using a sticky grease like wheel bearing grease. You won’t be reloading much (hopefully). If you do use a different lube, be sure to check out how it affects accuracy. Some rifles don’t care, so are picky.

  • #47226
     kens 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 54
    • Comments: 520
    • Overall: 574

    Yeah, I know minies are not tight by design, but I would like enough resistance to feel comfortable it will stay on top of the powder. I’m gonna try a thin patch.

  • #47244
     Goodsteel 
    Keymaster
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 207
    • Comments: 2449
    • Overall: 2656

    Flare the hollow base with a punch Kens. That’ll give it a little hold, like the powerbelt designs?

  • #47245
     kens 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 54
    • Comments: 520
    • Overall: 574

    I had thought about that, to ‘bump’ the thing. But how to control the bump though?

    I did manage a couple shots with a light greased patch, that did hold a nice friction to the bore.

    It was so windy though, I couldnt pour powder down the barrel without it blowing everywhere, target board blew over, and the guy 6 tables down with the obnoxious AR jarred my powder can everytime he shot. I kid you not, I felt his muzzle blast in my powder can.

    I’ll try to shoot another group soon.

  • #47265
     Rattlesnake Charlie 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 140
    • Comments: 665
    • Overall: 805

    kens

    Where is this “patch” going? Like a patched round ball or an overshot card for a shotgun? Seems like patched like a round ball might interfere with the hollow base expanding. But, then many things do not work like we plan on, and sometimes we get pleasant surprises.

    What bullet are you using now? Is it hollow base or solid base?

    What is the powder charge?

    Keep us posted.

  • #47268
     kens 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 54
    • Comments: 520
    • Overall: 574

    I tried a 220gr HP; a Lee 200gr FP 45acp; a Lee 230gr TC; and a 160gr 45minie hollow base,

    the 45acp bullets as a flat base didnt seem to stabilize very well, nor the 160gr minie.

    However, when I drilled a hollow base into the 45acp items, they all flew pretty good.

    The 45 TC was the surprise, it goes into POI same as roundball.

    I been testing with 55gr FFFg powder.

    The 45acp bullets are a bit loose in the lands though, loose enough that Im afraid to let the muzzle down.

    My patch is muslin cloth cut in narrow strips, and laid over the muzzle in a X manner, seating the bullet lets the X-patch wrap the bullet bands. Pillow ticking was too tight, I had to nearly hammer the bullets down, regular muslin not much better. Then I went to the high end fabric store with my calipers and talked to the lady there, and got some ‘premium muslin’ that was dense and thin. Pillow ticking was .015″, muslin .012″, and this new stuff is .006″

    What appears to be working is about a 230gr, 45acp, cast soft, (drilled with a hollowbase to about 190gr), with a premium muslin X patch,  over about 55 or 60 gr FFFg

  • #47274
     Rattlesnake Charlie 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 140
    • Comments: 665
    • Overall: 805

    Ought to get the job done. Looking forward to a photo the harvest.

  • #47275
     kens 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 54
    • Comments: 520
    • Overall: 574

    I dont have anything set up to catch a bullet yet, to see the TC mushroom. However, this 45acp TC bullet is leaving the muzzle with that muzzleloading ‘crack’.  the sound of the ball getting the sound barrier. round balls will do that. I dont have a chronograph, but am confident they are flying supersonic. With that being said, I’m looking at a 200gr soft bullet @ 1300+ fps.

    According to the load books, that is a ‘hot’ .357mag, or regular .44mag, or 45LC +P  territory. I got this going in a caplock as of now. The next step is to do it in a flintlock, from a ground blind.

    The truncated cone bullet shoots to POI of roundball very nicely, I hate to mess with it.

    BUT, when shooting the Lee 452-200RF, (hollow based) you should hear the smackdown of that thing whopping the backstop.  I’m gonna play with this some more. That big flat nose sailing at rifle speed is a badd mama jamma !!!!

  • #47278
     Rattlesnake Charlie 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 140
    • Comments: 665
    • Overall: 805

    One gallon water filled water jugs. I suspect you will need at least six if it expands. I collect milk jugs from coworkers with children. Just by myself, I don’t use a quart of milk a week unless I plan on making gravy.

  • #47295
     kens 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 54
    • Comments: 520
    • Overall: 574

    Went to the range today. Could not keep anything on paper, for some odd reason.

    Did find out that the hollow base with the thin patch, the thin patch ups the recoil and velocity by a wide margin. you can feel it shooting it. It must be acting like a gas seal. But I could not get a group. shot some without the patch, no group either.

    Shot a inline ML 209 primer type, with a 452-274 HP Keith in a .50cal sabot over 80gr FFFg. first 3 shots went into a cloverleaf @ 75yds. Then nothing after that. couldnt stay on paper.

    shot a .50cal SxS rifle 1:48 twist with 452-220FN in sabot, could keep EITHER barrel on paper.  This rifle has been known to shoot 45acp bullets in sabot prior to today.

    What’s up with today????

  • #47310
     kens 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 54
    • Comments: 520
    • Overall: 574

    Range report,

    The hand made hollow based acp bullet does not like the X-patch, the groups open up. Shoot it naked and it does OK, except that it loads loose in the bore. the patch fills the bore loading it, but opens the groups. I would need something like a 454-220gr mold to make this work. I tried beagling and that was a waste.

    Also found out I can take the 45acp TC bullet ‘as-cast’, and load it with the X-patch, it shoots just fine. I guess the thin patch is enough of a gas seal for the solid base to obturate. The next time out I’ll try the FN loaded same way.

    I got the SxS .50 doing better, all I did was step on the throttle and it grouped much better, with the acp TC bullet in a sabot.

  • #49473
     kens 
    Participant
    • Gold
    • ★★★
    • Posts: 54
    • Comments: 520
    • Overall: 574

    I got a chronograph and tried the above loads:

    Here goes:
    All data is soft cast except for the Hornady .40cal in a sabot, and all is black powder.
    Pistol bullets are loaded with a thin muslin greased patch cut in narrow strips to form a X patch on loading, as cast flat base,

    1. 40cal Hornady XTP loaded in a plastic sabot, 70gr 3f GEOX, 1st shot is a leftover from last years deer season, shot out of a cold bore 1810fps
    followed by, 1707fps, 1578, 1685, 1713

    2. .452 HP 230gr soft lead, 60gr 3f, with the X patch, 1494fps, 1445, 1518

    3. .45 Lee 200gr RNFP, 60gr 3f, X patch, 1518fps, 1530
    ran out of 3f powder.

    Got some 2f Geox powder and continued.

    4. .45 Lee 200gr RNFP, 60gr 2f, 1357fps, 1391

    5. .451 round ball with pillow ticking spit patch, 70gr 2f, 1820fps, 1697, 1691

    6. .45 Lee 230gr TC, 60gr 2f, 1396fps, 1356, 1356

    7. .40cal XTP in sabot, 80gr 2f, 1759fps, 1755, 1787

    8. .451 RB, spit patch, 80gr 2f, 1852fps, 1854

    got tired, went home.
    note: none of these today were shot for groups, as groups were experimented with last year to determine viability of shooting pistol boolits out of a slow twist round ball barrel.
    All of these will stabilize out of a 1:66 barrel, but NONE were shot for a tight group today.
    This is chrono speed data only, and data that they do indeed stabilize in 1:66″

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 2017 Goodsteel Forum. Designed by Covalent Designs, LLC.

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account

If you have any questions or comments, please contact us by clicking the button below.

Contact Us