- March 6, 2017 at 1:50 pm #33906
I was recently asked by a client if I recommend the Suarez International pistol grip for a self defense shotgun. After a very dramatic facepalm, I wrote this reply:
If I were to go with a pistol grip, this is the style I would go with because it can easily be shot from the hip, and I think the normal pistol grip is one of the dumbest ideas in history.
However, no matter how hard I squint, I can’t imagine a situation where the full buttstock would be a bad thing, and I can think of about 150 situations where I would want it in place with a steel reinforcing insert on the toe of the stock.
In my mind, the ultimate fighting shotgun was designed and implemented in WWI via the 1897 trenchgun and simply cannot be improved upon.
It was a full buttstock, and a 18″ barrel complimented ever so nicely with a bayonet lug.
This was the way the old 1897 pump guns were outfitted for trench warfare, and they were fearsome weapons. I see them as the Apache attack helicopter of the small arms world.
You’ve got 8 shots as fast as you can work the pump (just hold the trigger down and keep pumping) with the most lightning fast reload of any shotgun (look how the CASS guys use that shotgun). You’ve also got the option to run the sumbitch through with the bayonet (bayonet fighting is a bit of a lost art, but a very fearsome form of combat in it’s own right) and my personal favorite: the butt stroke and upper cut to the jaw (a helmet does nothing to protect from this particular tactic).
Knowing how effective this style of weapon can be when fully outfitted, I really don’t know what to say about the modern tacticool crowd who seem hell bent on declawing the pump 12 gauge at any cost.
News flash: its not a pistol and it never will be. It’s a fighting shotgun, and god help your adversaries if you know how to get the most out of it.
- March 6, 2017 at 1:56 pm #33907
If I were to design a fighting shotgun (and I have dreamed of such a thing quite a bit) it would probably be on a Remington 870 (especially if I could find a way to make it shoot when the trigger is held down). The stock would be made of straight grain walnut, it would have a steel buttplate that wraps the toe and protects it from damage, it would have a short barrel and a long magazine tube made of 1/16″ thick titanium tubing that a 12″ fluted spike bayonet would lug into. That’s about as good as it gets in my opinion!
- March 6, 2017 at 2:20 pm #33908
Goodsteel;n14750 wrote: If I were to design a fighting shotgun (and I have dreamed of such a thing quite a bit) it would probably be on a Remington 870 (especially if I could find a way to make it shoot when the trigger is held down)…….
Can be done soooo easy peasey. I have done several 870’s over the years
- March 6, 2017 at 2:40 pm #33909
You mean one like this: ?
- March 6, 2017 at 4:01 pm #33912
kens;n14752 wrote: You mean one like this: ?
Close, but no, I would not go with the Ithaca 37. The reason why is simply that when you run out of ammo, the only way to get it in the gun is to shove more in the tube under the gun with the action closed. That’s a great shotgun, but it has no place in this discussion as far as I’m concerned. When you run out of ammo, it’s imperative that you be able to slap in shells one at a time and keep shooting till you can get a second to stuff in more. The 37 soundly precludes this. Of course, for home defense, 7 shots should take care of everything you need it to, but a slight change in action styles gives you the ability to sustain fire as long as you have ammo.
I grew up on a Model 97 trench gun, and when I was 14, I would reload a 50 caliber ammo can full of shells, and I would practice slapping in additional shells. It was very fluid, and once I got to where the shotgun was one with me, it became instinctive to shoot 8, then have an extra shell in my hand. Slap it in, give the gun a stretch, and off goes another. I was actually quite fond of this and i had never even heard of SASS shooting!
It’s unfortunate that they quit making the 97 because it was positively fearsome, and any shotgun I handle these days feels like a cheap toy in comparison.
- March 6, 2017 at 4:02 pm #33913
That’s very good to know……..
- March 7, 2017 at 12:19 am #33921Labradigger1Participant
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Nothing like slam firing a 97 shotgun. Everyone should get to know how fast you can put 54 00 buck down range.
- March 7, 2017 at 2:14 am #33927Larry GibsonParticipant
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After many years experience (LE and military) with “fighting shotguns” of all types I’ve come to think of a shotgun’s use as I do a handgun’s use in a “fighting” scenario……that is simply to fight my way to my rifle which I never should have gotten so away from in the first place……..:eek:…..:rolleyes:
- March 7, 2017 at 2:42 am #33928Rattlesnake CharlieParticipant
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- March 7, 2017 at 1:55 pm #33936GhostHawkParticipant
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4 of us walked about a half mile into willow brush north of Greenbush Mn, way up on the nw corner to ambush a flock of big northern mallards we saw land.
Took us some time to find the spot, sneak into position, and give the signal.
Afterwords one of the guys comes up to me. I watched you Jamison, you fired your 3 same as the rest of us. But while we are all trying to stuff another round or 2 in the tube you are sitting there slapping in rounds one at a time and your rate of fire was almost as fast as the first 3. How????
Rem 870 Wingmaster, 20 ga, and years of practice.
In that hour walk, 30 seconds of some of the wildest shooting I have ever been involved in, we each limited out 3 times. And yes we made the youngest strip and swim for some of those ducks.
Any time I have been afield with one of my Rem 870’s I have never felt undergunned, or under equipped, or really incapable of dealing with almost anything that could happen.
Yeah a 870 with a trigger job so you could just hold the trigger down and pump, with a bayonet lug would indeed be an awesome thing.
- March 7, 2017 at 3:21 pm #33938
Now there’s a man that knows how to run a scattergun!!! Ha!!! Very well done.
- March 7, 2017 at 8:56 pm #33947HarterParticipant
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When I was hot chasing ducks and geese every weekend 4:30 to 2100 with traveling I had no difficulties with the BPS and getting 5 into a flushing flight or passing honkers . Of course over time the rush of the occasional double and the blue moon triple was replaced by the love of the hunt . Over 3 seasons I digressed into an O/U .
Having shot some variation of all of the great scatter guns , I love the Model 12 , I see the hold down trigger as a safety issue . The Ithica 37 and a 620 Savage have rewarded me with several AD/ND instances with less experienced shooters . In a shotgun I don’t see the disconnector as a handicap . Of course I never had a real left hand gun either so maybe all of that adapt and overcome made up for the shortcomings of the platform .
Trench warfare was an ugly business , the 97′ changed the way trenches were handled . The biggest change was that every time the breach locked it was as if a 9mm had been emptied 72 33 cal balls every time it was emptied . To get that many down range you had to reload an 03′ or 98′ 15 times . The Maxim wasn’t really suitable and the 1918 and 1919 weren’t available yet .
All things in perspective.
- March 10, 2017 at 2:54 am #34003
there is another shotgun that I thought was interesting, but you don’t hear of it as a fighting shotgun, and that is the Browning A-5.
I knew a local gunsmith (God bless him he is gone now), and I happened to ask just what he kept ‘under the counter.’
It was a A5 20ga. He bobbed the barrel to minimum , and ground off the bolt handle. small and sveldt, it was interesting.
But when I really looked at how it operated, a light came on in my mind.
It is recoil operated and as such you don’t NEED a charging handle, delete the handle, and it is a light, small, flat receiver.
If you feel the need to charge it, you jack the barrel & buttstock together, it will charge.
There is the magazine cutoff also. If you stuff the magazine, and close the cutoff, leave the bolt open, you have a gun with action open, and safe.
But, when you release the magazine cutoff, it SWALLOWS a round straight to battery.
It is interesting enough that I began searching gun shows for a tired looking A5 that I could feel comfortable with chopping down. But alas, the gun shows always seem to have the bright polish blue Belgium shotguns. Im not cutting up a pretty one just because I think it is cool.
- March 10, 2017 at 3:31 am #34004
Bless you for that. I’ve spent many an hour stoning around that fine engraving and pulling the tired ones back to perfection.
That said, I think I get the vision. If I were to do that, I would look for a Remington humpback to convert. Great idea.
- March 11, 2017 at 2:47 am #34019
Add to that, the guy had cut the buttstock short AKA mare’s leg.
Would that be a A5 Mare’s leg?
- March 12, 2017 at 1:06 am #34051jwtParticipant
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Before I got married I collected a few combat shotguns. I have a riot (1912) and a trench (1948) Winchester 97, a riot Remington 11 (1940), and a Stevens 520-30 trench (unknown date). I will try and dig them out of the back of the safe for a picture or two later.
- March 12, 2017 at 1:50 am #34052
the only issue with using the Remington is the Magazine cutout is not there….
BUT a person with a mill and abilities could machine one.
- March 12, 2017 at 3:16 am #34053JPHollaParticipant
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More like a “whippit” gun!
- March 12, 2017 at 2:24 pm #34057
I didn’t put this in the earlier comment I think the Remington 11 is a excellent choice for this usage. I only mentioned the lack of magazine cutout not to disqualify the Remington (now if you find a Remington 11 made during WWII they are the only Remington 11 with a cutoff and browning logo) but having looked over several browning clones I have only seen the cutoff on the Browning in peace time production (there are exceptions).
Stevens (mdl 720), winchester (1911) also had clones on the A-5 just to name a few. If I recall correctly the Remington is the closest to a parts interchange. not attempting to drift the thread just mentioning those patterned after the Auto five Browning
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