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    • #29156
      WCM
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      Something I noticed on the other cast bullets forum is that most people test their rifle loads at 50yds.
      Kind of made me lose interest in much of what was tested or written.

      I always test my rifle loads at 100 and 200 yds.

      Has anyone else found this strange?

      I tested rifles and load at 50 yds when I was twelve years old.
      I think that was pretty reasonable back then.

    • #29161
      GhostHawk
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      Well I may start a new load out at 50 but I do not consider it a success until it has been tested at 100.
      There are exceptions of course. I do not consider my Hipoint 995 Carbines to be long range weapons. More like close range or inside the house self defense tools.
      As such I have often tested them at the 50 foot pistol range when the rifle range was busy.

      I do need to shoot more at longer ranges but I live in town and the only close local range is indoor, underground and limited to 100y.

    • #29163
      Butch Wax
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      Zero at 12.5 yards.

      Check midrange trajectory according to caliber at 50 yards.

      Shoot for group at 100 yards only IF group at 50 was tight and precise. Otherwise discontinue said load test. If poor group at 50yds then it is illogical to continue at 100yds and beyond with inaccurate loads.

      Sometimes your deal breakers are discovered early enough before wasting many rounds at the mythical 100yds. :rolleyes:

    • #29164
      Waksupi
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      I usually do muzzle loaders and iron sight rifles at fifty, just because of poor eyesight. And, it is easier to get on paper with a new gun at 50 yards. Then I move on out to 100 yards.

    • #29166
      WCM
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      Waksupi;n8470 wrote: I usually do muzzle loaders and iron sight rifles at fifty, just because of poor eyesight. And, it is easier to get on paper with a new gun at 50 yards. Then I move on out to 100 yards.

      I agree, I do zero at about 50 yds or less ,but I see that 50 yds seems to be the standard for many people.
      Maybe they only have a short range for shooting.

      I have several .405 win’s that shoot a certain bullet great at 50yds, but at 100 yds I get fliers where the gas checks came off the base.
      I changed bullet designs and gas checks the fliers went away.

    • #29171
      Scharfschuetze
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      With cast bullets, I generally start at 50 yards to sort out the chaff. It’s also easier to set up the chronograph and then shoot at 50 yards as it saves time and ammo. Zeros with cast bullets are usually quite different than with jacketed bullets or the sight settings on military rifles and my 50 yard target frames will catch bullets that would generally be off the paper at 100 yards.

      Once I’m satisfied with a load at 50 yards and have a solid zero, It then goes to 100 and then 200 yards. If it shoots well at 200 yards, then I standardize on it and load enough up to last on my road trips for shooting where I often use the loads out to 600 yards and further.

      I tested rifles and load at 50 yds when I was twelve years old.
      I think that was pretty reasonable back then.

      That sounds a lot like some of the posts from the site that you are complaining about.

    • #29173
      WCM
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      Thanks for you input.
      It is just that about every time I read a bullet or load test on the other forum, most are taken at 50yds.
      I personally wouldn’t waste time posting 50 yd results.

      The way I found out my gas checks were not staying on the bullets is one of them left a gas check shaped chip in my sky screen.

    • #29176
      Wright Arms
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      WCM;n8472 wrote:

      I agree, I do zero at about 50 yds or less ,but I see that 50 yds seems to be the standard for many people.
      Maybe they only have a short range for shooting.

      I have several .405 win’s that shoot a certain bullet great at 50yds, but at 100 yds I get fliers where the gas checks came off the base.
      I changed bullet designs and gas checks the fliers went away.

      I have a Henry Big Boy in .357 that would group most anything around 2″ @ 50 yds, but it was nearly impossible to keep 10 shots on an 8 1/2″ x 11″ paper @ 100yds. Turned out it had bore constrictions, but that’s another story. I agree with the group. 50 yds is for initial sighting and chrono work. 100 is the minimum for testing group size.

    • #29204
      uber7mm
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      I agree with that 50 yards is kind of strange. I can almost accurately throw a rock that far.

      100 yards distance seems more conventional, i.e.: MOA.

    • #29208
      Goodsteel
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      Just my opinion, but shooting a rifle at 50 yards is like buttering your bread with a machete. 50 yards is good for pistols, shotgun slugs, boomerangs, atlatl, spears, and archery.
      Most of those with tight groups at 50 yards, would look pretty silly at 100 or (gasp) 200-300. Har!

      I have not taken a shot with a rifle at less than 85 yards in a year, except once last summer shooting with Lars45 under a canopy he set up with lever action rifles and revolvers.

      At 50 yards, I can shoot golf balls with my smoothbore shotgun using round ball loads. No rifling whatsoever. The way I see it, if a load does anything but eat a ragged hole at 50, then something is so drastically wrong with the gun, the ammo, or the shooter, you might as well head back to the bench, whereas if you have a ragged hole at 50, it tells you absolutely NOTHING. You might have a 1″ group with that ammo at 100, or you might just as easily have a 5″ group at 100.
      Now I don’t know about you fellers, but I’m good for a 300 yard offhand shot in the field, and my loads had better darn well shoot at 200 yards before I’ll take them into the woods with me (depending on the rifle and hunting area of course).
      Now if you figure that in the field 50 yards is the longest shot you would reasonably take; that is, if you saw a deer at 55 yards you would just admire it’s natural beauty and let it walk, then I can understand working with a rifle at 50 yards. However, I have yet to meet a fellow so blind that he holds himself to that standard and still goes hunting. I figure most folks start questioning whether they should take the shot if the deer is further than 150 yards away, and anything closer warrants an attempted shot (especially late in the season with an empty freezer at home).
      By virtue of that, I figure 100 yards is the least viable distance to work up loads at.

      My opinion only, but there’s the logic behind it.

    • #29209
      WCM
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      Apparently it is bragging rights to some, like shooting a four point buck..:)
      It was bragging rights when I was twelve or thirteen.

    • #29210
      popper
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      True if it doesn’t work at 50 it certainly won’t do 100 or 200. Now if a 50 target will tell you what is wrong, no problem posting and commenting – that’s the way others learn. If you only accept 200 pics, that’s for bragging rights only. Period.

    • #29212
      WCM
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      I have personally never be able to discern anything from a 50 yd group, but that is just me.
      Most everything I have shoots well at 50 yds.

      The one exception I remember was an old Ruger #1 in 7X57.
      It was chamber wrong and had a bad barrel.
      It wouldn’t shoot anything well.

    • #29214
      WCM
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      I guess my point is a load is unproven until verified at 100yds or 200 yds,and therefore scrap or not worth posting.

      It is sort of like people saying their rifle shoots half inch groups at 100 yds.
      What most mean is that one time they shot a half inch group with their rifle.

      The important thing is ,what will the rifle do day in and day out with a given load.

      I could write a whole article on loads that don’t work in my Ruger #1 .405 win,
      but I think what is beneficial for someone that owns the rifle is what does works and why.

    • #29215
      Rattlesnake Charlie
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      What does NOT work may be beneficial to others. Don’t need to try something that doesn’t work.

      I agree that posting after successful testing at 50 yds is best held off until you get results from 100 yds. Then post results, either good or bad. If the results are bad, post that too.

    • #29219
      uber7mm
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      Goodsteel;n8519 wrote: Just my opinion, but shooting a rifle at 50 yards is like buttering your bread with a machete. 50 yards is good for pistols, shotgun slugs, boomerangs, atlatl, spears, and archery.
      Most of those with tight groups at 50 yards, would look pretty silly at 100 or (gasp) 200-300. Har!,,,,,,,

      My approximate thoughts, and more eloquently penned.

    • #29221
      popper
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      So 7 5% of the rifle shooters in the country can’t post their targets because they don’t have a range > 100 yds? I have no problem with Goodstel who needs to prove his product or Larry or Bjorn posting boolit design tests. I don’t have a problem with those who post match results as that shows what can be done with skill/money/practice. To say some newbiie that just got a MOA group with his cast in a factory rifle shouldn’t be proud of HIS results puts YOU in the 1% elitist group. Have fun by yourself.

    • #29222
      WCM
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      I wasn’t meaning any slight towards anyone here.
      I guess I just got burned out reading about loads tested at 50 yds on the other forum.
      That is one reason among many that I am here.

    • #29223
      oldblinddog
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      Rattlesnake Charlie;n8528 wrote: Don’t need to try something that doesn’t work.

      I can’t agree with this part of your post. Just because it didn’t work in your rifle doesn’t mean it won’t work in mine. Basically the only thing I take from someone else’s testing is the cartridge, bullet, and powder charge, then, after researching what a starting load is, I test it in my rifle.

    • #29224
      Goodsteel
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      Popper, I stated very clearly that was my opinion only. It’s the same reason groups with less than 10 holes in them don’t blow my skirt up at all.
      Why?
      Same reason: it means nothing. It’s a false positive at best.
      That’s my opinion only, and you’re right: I am in a situation where I have a lot of incentive to be honest when I’m behind a rifle. I’ve been thrown under the bus once by shooting 8 rounds into a group and calling it good. SUB MOA with six in one hole, and it was a FLUKE!!!! What are the odds of that??? Well if anybody gets the lucky 8 shot group it’s me. I shoot very often whether I want to or not, and no matter how many months I’ve got in a rifle, I don’t get paid till it cuts reliable small groups at 100 yards. I insist on this because on occasion I find a client who claims one of my rifles will not shoot. This is often due to his choice of scope or inexperience shooting, but having two ten shot groups with a date and a yardage pretty much reminds him that when he points his finger at me, there’s three more pointing back at him, and it does it without me having to say much at all.
      When you make an accuracy claim for any reason, the rules of life are: if you took a reasonable sample at a standardized distance, the group does the talking for you. Excuses and explanations, or circled clusters will never hold the same water as one well done group.

      Allow me to demonstrate:
      I built a rifle for Bjornb on this forum that is sub 3/4MOA (edit to add: this was with jacketed bullets).

      Anybody want to call BS?
      LOL!

      That said, if people are new to cast bullets and are happy shooting at 50 yards, then they should feel free to do so, but PERSONALLY I am rather prejudiced towards the exceptional rather than the status quo.
      Its all good.

    • #29229
      Larry Gibson
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      I don’t have a problem with 50 yard groups as long as they are a sufficient sample and the results kept in context; handguns, muzzle loaders, initial zeroing and with squib/small game loads. Problem is most who shoot just at 50 yards do so with cast bullets because it’s easier to get what they consider to be “good” accuracy. Second problem is they then make untested claims of accuracy and potential based on those minimum 50 yard groups. Third problem is they get very testy (may be a pun there) when their 50 yard assumptions are questioned. I see some of them are now even posting 7 yard handgun groups as proof of accuracy ….. guess it boils down to what one’s own definition of “is” (as in accuracy) is…….

      Obviously my definition of accuracy is different from the majority, at least according to some, which may be part of why I was banned on CBF. Seems those in the so stated majority are entitled to their opinions but us in the minority , so stated, are not. That eloquently demonstrates what’s misguided about a democracy. Would we still live in a Republic our minority view, right or wrong, would still be respected.

      Larry Gibson

    • #29231
      Anonymous
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      Larry Gibson;n8544 wrote: I don’t have a problem with 50 yard groups as long as they are a sufficient sample and the results kept in context; handguns, muzzle loaders, initial zeroing and with squib/small game loads. Problem is most who shoot just at 50 yards do so with cast bullets because it’s easier to get what they consider to be “good” accuracy. Second problem is they then make untested claims of accuracy and potential based on those minimum 50 yard groups. Third problem is they get very testy (may be a pun there) when their 50 yard assumptions are questioned. I see some of them are now even posting 7 yard handgun groups as proof of accuracy ….. guess it boils down to what one’s own definition of “is” (as in accuracy) is…….

      Obviously my definition of accuracy is different from the majority, at least according to some, which may be part of why I was banned on CBF. Seems those in the so stated majority are entitled to their opinions but us in the minority , so stated, are not. That eloquently demonstrates what’s misguided about a democracy. Would we still live in a Republic our minority view, right or wrong, would still be respected.

      Larry Gibson

      Well said Larry. Tolerance and respect seem to be virtues of the past.

    • #29235
      Wright Arms
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      popper;n8534 wrote: So 7 5% of the rifle shooters in the country can’t post their targets because they don’t have a range > 100 yds? I have no problem with Goodstel who needs to prove his product or Larry or Bjorn posting boolit design tests. I don’t have a problem with those who post match results as that shows what can be done with skill/money/practice. To say some newbiie that just got a MOA group with his cast in a factory rifle shouldn’t be proud of HIS results puts YOU in the 1% elitist group. Have fun by yourself.

      I do not follow. 75% of the country does not have access to a 100 yd range? I would be interested to know where you got that figure from.

      And what are you saying about newbie results? I’m sorry, but if someone shoots a MOA group once but can’t do it again I call that wishful thinking.

    • #29237
      Sgt. Mike
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      Yes WCW I do find the 50 yard work up somewhat lacking,but Popper is right some don’t have access to a 100 yard range, too lazy to walk the extra 50 yards cuz it’s hot or a disability but I seriously doubt 75% of shooters can’t get on a 100 yard range. I have been stationed in several states and have not been anywhere that i couldn’t find a 100 to 200 yard range.

      I am in the camp that a load should be developed for the expected range that it is expected to work at. A terrible 50 yard group doesn’t mean a terrible 100 yard group only a terrible group at 100 yards means a terrible load for that distance. I have seen that to be true as well as vise versa, I have also seen a load show great promise at 50 or even 100 yards only next time out to go to pot when repeatability comes in or when the distance covered is doubled or tripled.

      But if a shooter says his group is fired at 50 I have no issue with his or her choice of distance. Provided they don’t attempt to tell what the load is capable of without shooting it at 100 yards or the proposed distance to validate claims. Or, that shooting a reduced distance is a superior system sorry that dog don’t hunt. That has been done numerous times on different forums. Why do I prefer 100 yards??? Because the math is easy.

      With all that being said I want to end on that it doesn’t matter if it is 50, 100, 150, 200, 312, 600 800 or 1000 yards, shoot what you like for distance. I don’t think a reduced range means a persons ability or load is questionable until they make the claim that it will shoot a certain size at double the range unless they have fired it at the claimed distance. apples to apples, oranges to oranges is the only way to validate or compare.

      Just my opinion on the topic nothing more, many have brought out good points and opinions in this thread. Thank you for your time. I have enjoyed our conversation here on this.

      P.S. I don’t carry wallet groups as I expect my next groups to be tighter than my last ( Tim not picking on the laminate group you have, you and I have discussed why you carry that group, it is a business tool).

    • #29238
      Goodsteel
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      The truth is that this is exactly why goodsteel forum exists. I too was uncerimoniouy banned from Castboolits with no explanation given. The fact is, they don’t want people talking over there about holding a higher standard and demonstrating how very possible it is to push the limits. Goodsteel forum was created as a hangout for people who like to talk about roasting bullets over a chronograph at 3000 fps, or shooting things at extended ranges with cast bullets, or just seeing what is possible if you do everything just right. Apparently the pursuit of such higher learning is dispicible in other places, so here we are.
      If you want to post three shot groups at 10 yards then go right ahead. Just Keep in mind the company you are in.

      Kind of reminds me of a time when I was engaged in competitive archery. My wingman and I decided to start a friendly local 5 spot indoor competition at our favorite bow shop.
      My buddy Joe was really excited because we were pushing thumbtacks at 20 yards and hardly any of the normal 3D guys we shoot with could hold a candle to our level of proficiency.
      We needed to invite people to shoot with us, and Joe invited all the 3D guys. I went a different direction. I went to the range several towns over where the prostaffers hung out. One of the guys was there practicing with a $2000 setup and methodically cutting the Xs out of the target. I shot a few targets next to this guy with my cheap PSE and obviously got his attention. I told him we were having a friendly competition several towns over, and if he and any of his buddies want to show up, I would appreciate it.

      The the day of the competition, none of the fellows my wingman invited showed up, but the one fellow I spoke to showed up with about ten of his buddies.
      I’ll never forget drawing my bow on the line, and cutting my eyes to the left and seeing about a dozen silver cams all loaded up ready to shoot.
      What a day that was! I was never so pleased to get my ass handed to me. This was REAL competition!!!! I took third place trophy, that day, but neither me or Joe touched the 1st or 2nd. We basically got our clocks cleaned.

      After the shoot, Joe was visibly upset. He said to me “why in the hell did you invite those guys Tim??? Why in the hell would you do that?!?!?”

      I didn’t really know what to say because I hadn’t really considered doing anything else, but I told him “Joe, what does it mean if we set up a shoot like this, shoot against a bunch of fellows we know we can beat, beat them, and take home the trophies we bought? That doesn’t mean anything to me. It only means something if you win against folks who know the game!”
      I was only 22 years old at that time, but I still think I was right.

      The truth is, in any persuit, your skill is defined and realized by the company you keep, and here at GSF, I think our company is pretty solid.

    • #29240
      WCM
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      Thanks for all the replies,and thank you Tim for creating this alternative forum.
      It is much needed.

      I too left the other forum, because it was obvious my opinion was neither needed or wanted..

      My standard of accuracy is pretty high,and I don’t mind chasing the dragon to achieve it.

    • #29248
      popper
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      My standard of accuracy is pretty high,and I don’t mind chasing the dragon to achieve it.

      No problem with that at all I don’t even have a problem if this board is more for the ‘elites’ ( I can still learn a lot here), seems to be. I will give an example, I recently got a new mould design (modded RD) for my 30/30. Shot at 50 and noticed evidence of tipping the low fps unique loads. Could have been off paper at 100. Answer, up the charge. Full power GCd LeverE loads worked fine. One is PB, the other GC. Mostly for 100 & below pig hunting/range plinking. Houston has a long range, Dallas area has one ~60 mi. away.but local there is a plan for 200+ in a few years. Like most metro area, not much available. I’d like to try 200+ but it takes most of a weekend to do that. Basically this thread was repeated on the ‘other board’ and responses were pretty much the same. Only reason I posted in this thread.

    • #29249
      WCM
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      I wasn’t banned from the other forum, I just feel that my time is wasted there.
      If I am going to post information that I worked hard achieving, I hope that others may benefit from it.

      I completely understand many have no access to a good shooting range.
      I am fortunate enough to have up to 600 yds to shoot and test guns and ammo.

      I have fifty years shooting experience. As far as an elitist, I wouldn’t call myself that.
      I have learned most things the hard way by trial and error.

      There is some good information and people on the other board, I just feel it was time for me to move on..

    • #29250
      Larry Gibson
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      In an unintended way he he is correct as “elite” means you are the best and most proficient at what you do: ” a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities.”

      Probably not what popper intended but the essence of the accusation remains factual none the less. It has always been the “elitists ” in every facet of human endeavor that have set the example and provided the advances in civilization. However, since that’s obviously not what was intended perhaps popper meant to use the term in the current degradating vernacular used by the proletariat progressive masses?

      Larry Gibson

    • #29251
      Waksupi
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      We have plenty of 100 yard ranges around here. What we are lacking, are 1000 yard ranges!

    • #29252
      popper
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      I meant the ‘cream od the crop’ but often that comes with a ‘special’ attitude. It’s the attitude that irritates me. I can’t build rifles like Tim or shoot like you can but do my best.

    • #29253
      Anonymous
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      Here we have a 1000 yard range but I don’t have optics to see the target in any detail. Got to ride a 4 wheeler to change targets or even see if they were hit! Out of my league but I do enjoy being able to shoot longer ranges. Can’t boast of my accuracy but unless you push your limits you’ll never exceed them.

    • #29256
      WCM
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      retread;n8569 wrote: Here we have a 1000 yard range but I don’t have optics to see the target in any detail. Got to ride a 4 wheeler to change targets or even see if they were hit! Out of my league but I do enjoy being able to shoot longer ranges. Can’t boast of my accuracy but unless you push your limits you’ll never exceed them.

      That is what we have to do at 600 yds.
      I am not sure there is a spotting scope that will do it.
      The mirage is very bad here now.

    • #29261
      Goodsteel
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      I have no range that extends to 1000 yards. I wish I did but I think that if I did, and I started popping my suspenders and saying you have to shoot 500 yards minimum before your results are worth anything, THAT would be an elitist point of view.
      However, I DO have emediate access to a 600 yard range, and I shoot there often.
      Why then do I recomend 100 yards?
      It also only takes only one shot placed where stated to get the job done.
      Why then do I recommend 10 shots?
      Because its BARE MINIMUM.
      Any further than 100 yards, wind and environment can be blamed for larger groups, where as most of the time things have to be pretty environmentally pear shaped to blow a group. Sgt.Mike shoots many different ranges on a regular basis, and he calls 100 yards a “no wind zero”. It’s far enough away to get a good idea of what the rifle is doing but close enough the wind can’t get much hold of the situation.

      By the same token, ten shots is the minimum number of shots necessary to determine the true group size or “cone of fire”.
      Larry says that 7 is the minimum, but I’ve been fooled by 8 once (one in a million for sure but it happened all the same).
      By virtue of that, my minimum is nine shots. I stick to ten because it’s only one more shot, it’s two rows in an ammo box, and I see it as insurance. If I shoot nine into a group, and I’m feeling froggy enough to send the rifle off with a guarantee of precision, then that tenth shot is the nail on the coffin and the one I take the most pride in. If I shoot it and I see no change in the group, then I whistle all the way to the post office.

      Five shot groups? I wouldn’t stake anything on that. Certainly not a custom build, but not even a shaky certainty of a rifles accuracy. It’s just simply not a large enough sample size.

      I can illustrate another way:
      My M1A has a cone of fire of 1.4 MOA. Ten shots, 20 shots, no matter. They’re all going to hit somewhere in that area.
      Last year I was out shooting with my buddy at the 600 yard field. We rang some steel at 600, then decided to paint the plates and spend some time at 400.
      I had the M1A with me, and he said I aught to see if I could hit the plate from 400. I racked the slide and drilled the plate 2″ high of dead center standing flat footed with no rest. He looked at me like I was H M Pope himself. (Of course, I knew better than to try to repeat the performance. LOL! I’d probably miss the plate clean the next time!)
      Point is, just because I got a lucky shot with a rifle that prints a group like a dinner plate from a rest at that range, doesn’t give me any call to go around claiming I achieved some level of proficiency, or that I could do it every time.

      Theres just no place for luck in the same room with science.
      I think that’s just being honest. You have to be honest with yourself before you can expect anyone else to take your claims seriously. I try to be extremely honest with myself, and I certainly want people to take my claims seriously. So it all works out perfectly with my method at the risk of being considered an elitist.
      There you have it.

    • #29272
      uber7mm
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      Ten Shot Minimum?

      Sounds like a saloon I better avoid.

    • #29273
      Larry Gibson
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      Wow, just think about it…..10 shots of “group tightner” and we could all shoot CBF 312 yard 5/8″ groups…….and think of the other potential claims…..

      Which “tighner” gives the best groups…

      Which gives the faster kbs (keyboard per second) groups……

      Which gets you lubricated better…..

      Does the diameter of the shot glass affect accuracy…..

      Affect on keyboard group accuracy of straight, over ice, water back or mixed……

      What are “hard” tighteners…….

      And of course the endless discussion of proper aging…..

      Could go on all day posing such tongue and cheek possibilities…….

      Larry Gibson

    • #29275
      WCM
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      Larry Gibson;n8591 wrote: Wow, just think about it…..10 shots of “group tightner” and we could all shoot CBF 312 yard 5/8″ groups…….and think of the other potential claims…..

      Which “tighner” gives the best groups…

      Which gives the faster kbs (keyboard per second) groups……

      Which gets you lubricated better…..

      Does the diameter of the shot glass affect accuracy…..

      Affect on keyboard group accuracy of straight, over ice, water back or mixed……

      What are “hard” tighteners…….

      And of course the endless discussion of proper aging…..

      Could go on all day posing such tongue and cheek possibilities…….

      Larry Gibson

      I like it!…;)

      Remember some people are only on there to argue politics and religion.

      I am not sure why they don’t just go to a political or religious forum?

    • #29281
      Wright Arms
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      uber7mm;n8590 wrote: Ten Shot Minimum?

      Sounds like a saloon I better avoid.

      I avoid all saloons. I’m allergic to whisky. Makes my knuckles, knees, forehead and elbows bleed. Results in 2-3 days worth of bruising and body aches as well. Learned this in my 20s. Have avoided the places like the plague since.

      Sorry for the thread drift. Carry on, Gents.

    • #29284
      Sgt. Mike
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      Goodsteel;n8577 wrote: ……………….
      Any further than 100 yards, wind and environment can be blamed for larger groups, where as most of the time things have to be pretty environmentally pear shaped to blow a group. Sgt.Mike shoots many different ranges on a regular basis, and he calls 100 yards a “no wind zero”. It’s far enough away to get a good idea of what the rifle is doing but close enough the wind can’t get much hold of the situation……………

      yes yes I did say and still believe that.

      # of rounds for accuracy true testing I would say that ten is the Minimum. But I do modify that for what I am going for example, if I’m building a High power gun, NRA Match gun or something that requires a 20 shot string I want the test to be a 20 shot group.
      Mo Chuslia I shot the 5 shot groups why? several reasons I was patching between shots both jacketed and cast to keep fouling to a minimum for break in purposes. Two I just wanted to test several type of bullets over the same load in jacketed to see stability my time was limited as I had to wait a bit for a bench. I shot Swampworks (JLK) 175gr VLD those are some of the longest 175’s on the market, nice round hole ok stable. the 155’s and 168 did exactly what i expected. So when I do fire the next groups for accuracy I will shoot ten shot groups, what do I expect well, they will probably grow by 1/3 to 1/2 larger.

    • #29286
      Sgt. Mike
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      Here is a 30-06 175gr JLK 175gr load showing wind drift on 50 yard zero 10MPH wind.

      Trajectory
      Input Data
      Manufacturer:JLKDescription:VLD
      Caliber:0.308 inWeight:175.0 gr
      Ballistic Coefficient:0.545 G1 (ASM)
      Bullet Length (Library):1.350 inPlastic Tip Length:0.000 in
      Muzzle Velocity:2800.0 ft/sDistance to Chronograph:10.0 ft
      Sight Height:1.50 inSight Offset:0.00 in
      Zero Height:0.00 inZero Offset:0.00 in
      Windage:0.000 MOAElevation:0.000 MOA
      Line Of Sight Angle:0.0 degCant Angle:0.0 deg
      Barrel Twist:13.5 inTwist Direction:Right
      Wind Speed:10.0 mphWind Angle:90.0 deg
      Target Speed:0.0 mphTarget Angle:90.0 deg
      Target Height:12.0 in
      Temperature:57.9 °FPressure:29.59 in Hg
      Humidity:0 %Altitude:312.0 ft
      Vital Zone Radius:2.5 in
      Std. Atmosphere at Altitude:YesPressure is Corrected:Yes
      Zero at Max. Point Blank Range:NoTarget Relative Drops:Yes
      Mark Sound Barrier Crossing:NoInclude Extra Rows:No
      Column 1 Units:1.00 inColumn 2 Units:1.00 MOA
      Round Output to Whole Numbers:No
      Output Data
      Elevation:3.941 MOAWindage:-0.310 MOA
      Atmospheric Density:0.07578 lb/ft³Speed of Sound:1115.3 ft/s
      Maximum PBR:262 ydMaximum PBR Zero:223 yd
      Range of Maximum Height:128 ydEnergy at Maximum PBR:2181.8 ft•lbs
      Sectional Density:0.264 lb/in²Stability at Muzzle:1.065
      Calculated Table
      Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
      (yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
      0-1.5***0.0***2805.82.5163058.60.0000.0***
      1000.30.30.30.32634.32.3622696.00.1100.00.0
      200-2.9-1.42.01.02469.12.2142368.60.2280.00.0
      300-11.8-3.75.21.72310.02.0712073.10.3540.00.0

      looking at the Sierria 155’s same same with a 50 yard zero.

      Trajectory
      Input Data
      Manufacturer:SierraDescription:Palma [2155] (Litz)
      Caliber:0.308 inWeight:155.0 gr
      Ballistic Coefficient:0.214 G7 (ICAO)
      Bullet Length (Library):1.131 inPlastic Tip Length:0.000 in
      Muzzle Velocity:2800.0 ft/sDistance to Chronograph:10.0 ft
      Sight Height:1.50 inSight Offset:0.00 in
      Zero Height:0.00 inZero Offset:0.00 in
      Windage:0.000 MOAElevation:0.000 MOA
      Line Of Sight Angle:0.0 degCant Angle:0.0 deg
      Barrel Twist:13.5 inTwist Direction:Right
      Wind Speed:10.0 mphWind Angle:90.0 deg
      Target Speed:0.0 mphTarget Angle:90.0 deg
      Target Height:12.0 in
      Temperature:57.9 °FPressure:29.59 in Hg
      Humidity:0 %Altitude:312.0 ft
      Vital Zone Radius:2.5 in
      Std. Atmosphere at Altitude:YesPressure is Corrected:Yes
      Zero at Max. Point Blank Range:NoTarget Relative Drops:Yes
      Mark Sound Barrier Crossing:NoInclude Extra Rows:No
      Column 1 Units:1.00 inColumn 2 Units:1.00 MOA
      Round Output to Whole Numbers:No
      Output Data
      Elevation:3.945 MOAWindage:-0.389 MOA
      Atmospheric Density:0.07578 lb/ft³Speed of Sound:1115.3 ft/s
      Maximum PBR:257 ydMaximum PBR Zero:219 yd
      Range of Maximum Height:126 ydEnergy at Maximum PBR:1781.2 ft•lbs
      Sectional Density:0.233 lb/in²Stability at Muzzle:1.572
      Calculated Table
      Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
      (yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
      0-1.5***0.0***2807.32.5172711.90.0000.0***
      1000.30.30.40.42593.02.3252313.70.1110.00.0
      200-3.1-1.52.61.22387.82.1411962.00.2320.00.0
      300-12.6-4.06.82.22192.31.9661653.80.3630.00.0

    • #29287
      Sgt. Mike
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      155gr Sierra Palma with a 1-10″ twist

      Trajectory
      Input Data
      Manufacturer:SierraDescription:Palma [2155] (Litz)
      Caliber:0.308 inWeight:155.0 gr
      Ballistic Coefficient:0.214 G7 (ICAO)
      Bullet Length (Library):1.131 inPlastic Tip Length:0.000 in
      Muzzle Velocity:2800.0 ft/sDistance to Chronograph:10.0 ft
      Sight Height:1.50 inSight Offset:0.00 in
      Zero Height:0.00 inZero Offset:0.00 in
      Windage:0.000 MOAElevation:0.000 MOA
      Line Of Sight Angle:0.0 degCant Angle:0.0 deg
      Barrel Twist:10.0 inTwist Direction:Right
      Wind Speed:10.0 mphWind Angle:90.0 deg
      Target Speed:0.0 mphTarget Angle:90.0 deg
      Target Height:12.0 in
      Temperature:90.0 °FPressure:29.92 in Hg
      Humidity:87 %Altitude:312.0 ft
      Vital Zone Radius:2.5 in
      Std. Atmosphere at Altitude:NoPressure is Corrected:Yes
      Zero at Max. Point Blank Range:NoTarget Relative Drops:Yes
      Mark Sound Barrier Crossing:NoInclude Extra Rows:No
      Column 1 Units:1.00 inColumn 2 Units:1.00 MOA
      Round Output to Whole Numbers:No
      Output Data
      Elevation:3.944 MOAWindage:-0.384 MOA
      Atmospheric Density:0.07022 lb/ft³Speed of Sound:1149.4 ft/s
      Maximum PBR:258 ydMaximum PBR Zero:221 yd
      Range of Maximum Height:127 ydEnergy at Maximum PBR:1825.8 ft•lbs
      Sectional Density:0.233 lb/in²Stability at Muzzle:3.008
      Calculated Table
      Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
      (yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
      0-1.5***0.0***2806.92.4422711.00.0000.0***
      1000.30.30.40.42605.22.2672335.50.1110.00.0
      200-3.0-1.42.51.22411.72.0982001.50.2310.00.0
      300-12.3-3.96.52.12226.91.9371706.50.3600.00.0

      JLK 175’s

      Trajectory
      Input Data
      Manufacturer:JLKDescription:VLD
      Caliber:0.308 inWeight:175.0 gr
      Ballistic Coefficient:0.545 G1 (ASM)
      Bullet Length (Library):1.350 inPlastic Tip Length:0.000 in
      Muzzle Velocity:2800.0 ft/sDistance to Chronograph:10.0 ft
      Sight Height:1.50 inSight Offset:0.00 in
      Zero Height:0.00 inZero Offset:0.00 in
      Windage:0.000 MOAElevation:0.000 MOA
      Line Of Sight Angle:0.0 degCant Angle:0.0 deg
      Barrel Twist:10.0 inTwist Direction:Right
      Wind Speed:10.0 mphWind Angle:90.0 deg
      Target Speed:0.0 mphTarget Angle:90.0 deg
      Target Height:12.0 in
      Temperature:90.0 °FPressure:29.92 in Hg
      Humidity:87 %Altitude:312.0 ft
      Vital Zone Radius:2.5 in
      Std. Atmosphere at Altitude:NoPressure is Corrected:Yes
      Zero at Max. Point Blank Range:NoTarget Relative Drops:Yes
      Mark Sound Barrier Crossing:NoInclude Extra Rows:No
      Column 1 Units:1.00 inColumn 2 Units:1.00 MOA
      Round Output to Whole Numbers:No
      Output Data
      Elevation:3.940 MOAWindage:-0.304 MOA
      Atmospheric Density:0.07022 lb/ft³Speed of Sound:1149.4 ft/s
      Maximum PBR:263 ydMaximum PBR Zero:224 yd
      Range of Maximum Height:128 ydEnergy at Maximum PBR:2225.9 ft•lbs
      Sectional Density:0.264 lb/in²Stability at Muzzle:2.039
      Calculated Table
      Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
      (yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
      0-1.5***0.0***2805.52.4413057.80.0000.0***
      1000.30.30.30.32644.42.3012716.80.1100.00.0
      200-2.8-1.32.00.92488.92.1652406.60.2270.00.0
      300-11.6-3.75.01.62338.62.0352124.70.3510.00.0
    • #29288
      Sgt. Mike
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      Looking at the 1-10″ Twist 30-06 using the 175 JLK

      Trajectory
      Input Data
      Manufacturer:JLKDescription:VLD
      Caliber:0.308 inWeight:175.0 gr
      Ballistic Coefficient:0.545 G1 (ASM)
      Bullet Length (Library):1.350 inPlastic Tip Length:0.000 in
      Muzzle Velocity:2800.0 ft/sDistance to Chronograph:10.0 ft
      Sight Height:1.50 inSight Offset:0.00 in
      Zero Height:0.00 inZero Offset:0.00 in
      Windage:0.000 MOAElevation:0.000 MOA
      Line Of Sight Angle:0.0 degCant Angle:0.0 deg
      Barrel Twist:10.0 inTwist Direction:Right
      Wind Speed:10.0 mphWind Angle:90.0 deg
      Target Speed:0.0 mphTarget Angle:90.0 deg
      Target Height:12.0 in
      Temperature:90.0 °FPressure:29.92 in Hg
      Humidity:87 %Altitude:312.0 ft
      Vital Zone Radius:2.5 in
      Std. Atmosphere at Altitude:NoPressure is Corrected:Yes
      Zero at Max. Point Blank Range:NoTarget Relative Drops:Yes
      Mark Sound Barrier Crossing:NoInclude Extra Rows:No
      Column 1 Units:1.00 inColumn 2 Units:1.00 MOA
      Round Output to Whole Numbers:No
      Output Data
      Elevation:3.940 MOAWindage:-0.304 MOA
      Atmospheric Density:0.07022 lb/ft³Speed of Sound:1149.4 ft/s
      Maximum PBR:263 ydMaximum PBR Zero:224 yd
      Range of Maximum Height:128 ydEnergy at Maximum PBR:2225.9 ft•lbs
      Sectional Density:0.264 lb/in²Stability at Muzzle:2.039
      Calculated Table
      Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
      (yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
      0-1.5***0.0***2805.52.4413057.80.0000.0***
      1000.30.30.30.32644.42.3012716.80.1100.00.0
      200-2.8-1.32.00.92488.92.1652406.60.2270.00.0
      300-11.6-3.75.01.62338.62.0352124.70.3510.00.0

      the 155’s look like this

      Trajectory
      Input Data
      Manufacturer:SierraDescription:Palma [2155] (Litz)
      Caliber:0.308 inWeight:155.0 gr
      Ballistic Coefficient:0.214 G7 (ICAO)
      Bullet Length (Library):1.131 inPlastic Tip Length:0.000 in
      Muzzle Velocity:2800.0 ft/sDistance to Chronograph:10.0 ft
      Sight Height:1.50 inSight Offset:0.00 in
      Zero Height:0.00 inZero Offset:0.00 in
      Windage:0.000 MOAElevation:0.000 MOA
      Line Of Sight Angle:0.0 degCant Angle:0.0 deg
      Barrel Twist:10.0 inTwist Direction:Right
      Wind Speed:10.0 mphWind Angle:90.0 deg
      Target Speed:0.0 mphTarget Angle:90.0 deg
      Target Height:12.0 in
      Temperature:90.0 °FPressure:29.92 in Hg
      Humidity:87 %Altitude:312.0 ft
      Vital Zone Radius:2.5 in
      Std. Atmosphere at Altitude:NoPressure is Corrected:Yes
      Zero at Max. Point Blank Range:NoTarget Relative Drops:Yes
      Mark Sound Barrier Crossing:NoInclude Extra Rows:No
      Column 1 Units:1.00 inColumn 2 Units:1.00 MOA
      Round Output to Whole Numbers:No
      Output Data
      Elevation:3.944 MOAWindage:-0.384 MOA
      Atmospheric Density:0.07022 lb/ft³Speed of Sound:1149.4 ft/s
      Maximum PBR:258 ydMaximum PBR Zero:221 yd
      Range of Maximum Height:127 ydEnergy at Maximum PBR:1825.8 ft•lbs
      Sectional Density:0.233 lb/in²Stability at Muzzle:3.008
      Calculated Table
      Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
      (yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
      0-1.5***0.0***2806.92.4422711.00.0000.0***
      1000.30.30.40.42605.22.2672335.50.1110.00.0
      200-3.0-1.42.51.22411.72.0982001.50.2310.00.0
      300-12.3-3.96.52.12226.91.9371706.50.3600.00.0
    • #29321
      dragon813gt
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      I question the fliers more than the distance. It’s not unusual to see a target posted that has multiple fliers on it. I freely admit I’m not the best shot. So unless someone touches off a 338 Lapua, right before I squeeze the trigger, I’m not good enough to call my fliers. It seems that people throw them out because they hurt the group size. Just like taking a mulligan in golf IMO.

      I start at 50 to see if it has any promise. From there I move out to 100. There’s a 300yd range eight minutes from my house. I should shoot at that distance more often but I don’t. Like I said I’m not that good and any hunting shot is limited to 100 yards due to terrain. I’d probably get better if I started shooting at 300 😀

      EDIT:
      In regards to why people don’t post on a political and religious forum. It’s because they don’t want to have a debate. They want to be surrounded by like minded people so the confirmation bias sinks in deep. I would use the term bigot to describe quite a few of them as well.

    • #29323
      Larry Gibson
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      T’was the ballisticians at Speer who came up with 7 shots deing statistically the minimal #of shots. A test o 7 shots gives a 90% surety that that specific load will fall within those parameters of group and velocity if tested. Probably why goodsteel got caught with the 8 shot group…..it was in the remaining 9 – 10# outside the “surety” level for that load.

      Using 10 shot test strings ups the surety level to an acceptable level which is why is is the industry (that does not include most testing done in gun magazines which have their own “standard”). Appears that with the easier to use than C.U.P. psi measuring devices of transducers and strain gauge devices that an additional 3 test of 10 shots is becoming standard for “validation of a load.

      The only way to get a 100% surety that a given lot af ammo with perform as tested is to test the entire 100 %of that lot of ammo…….not hardly practical. Thus we accept some level of expectation that some shots in a given lot of ammo will be outside the test parameters. Having confidence in how much outside the tested parameters is then a function of the quality of testing and the “surety ” level attained.

      Larry Gibson

    • #29324
      WCM
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      My son has great twenty nine year old eyes and is an excellent shot.
      I trained him from the time he was six years old.

      I’ll get him to shoot my loads sometime, so as to get a better standard of human error in the mix.

      Plus it is nice to sit back and watch him shoot.

    • #29337
      Goodsteel
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      dragon813gt;n8651 wrote: I question the fliers more than the distance. It’s not unusual to see a target posted that has multiple fliers on it. I freely admit I’m not the best shot. So unless someone touches off a 338 Lapua, right before I squeeze the trigger, I’m not good enough to call my fliers. It seems that people throw them out because they hurt the group size. Just like taking a mulligan in golf IMO.

      Not to argue in any way (a man certainly should know his limitations) but I have heard the exact same words from gents at the range who wandered over to get acquainted. Usually they ask me how much one of my customs would cost them, I tell them an average cost, then they explain why they are not a good enough shot to justify it. Of course during the course of conversation, I offer to let them shoot the rifle on the bench in front of me, and they are often surprised to find out they are a better shot than they thought.

      Good rifle, good ammo, good form= good groups.
      Personally, my experience leads me to believe that when a bullet strays from the group, most shooters are far more likely to blame themselves rather than their rifle or loads regardless of the real reason for it.
      We cant let perception get in the way of reality, no matter how inconvenient the latter happens to be at the time, and the only way to distinguish between the two is with infallible testing methods.
      Just like balancing your checkbook, (where the likelihood of your having more money seems to be a disproportionately rare occurrence) I feel that bad groups usually point to the need for better quality equipment, components, or reloading philosophy, rather than an easily dismissed fluke.

    • #29353
      Sgt. Mike
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      And now for the levity that I’m famous for just to keep things light

    • #29408
      Sgt. Mike
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      Ok folks that was funny I don’t care who ya are, it is bound to cause a slight smile.

      (that was not directed at anyone just seen it (the graphic / picture) and want to share)

    • #29411
      Sgt. Mike
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      How to Check Your Work: Accuracy and Chronograph Testing, Part 1

      by U.S. Army, Army Marksmanship Unit, Custom Firearms Shop – Thursday, July 28, 2016

      WARNING: All technical data in this publication, especially for handloading, reflect the limited experience of individuals using specific tools, products, equipment and components under specific conditions and circumstances not necessarily reported in the article and over which the National Rifle Association (NRA) has no control. The data has not otherwise been tested or verified by the NRA. The NRA, its agents, officers and employees accept no responsibility for the results obtained by persons using such data and disclaim all liability for any consequential injuries or damages.

      Above: In Photo 1, this machine rest illustrates ideal straight-line, consistent tracking under recoil.

      In this article the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit (AMU) departs from handloading technique and theory to address the final results of our work. How does our ammunition perform? How well does it meet our specific needs? And finally, how do we capture valid data for decision-making in our testing?

      Bench Testing Technique
      Testing one’s rifle from a rest for accuracy can be fairly simple once the basic tenets are understood. However, it does require consistent, focused attention to detail. Knowing those principles and the essential details will help shooters to obtain their rifle’s best accuracy and to properly assess their ammunition.

      Part 1–Begin with the obvious–check tightness of all screws and fasteners such as action screws, scope base and ring screws, etc. This can also include parts of one’s rest equipment — e.g., the main post of the typical benchrest pedestal.

      The author got “bitten” many years ago when accuracy testing his personal NM Beretta 92 with a series of carefully and laboriously constructed match loads, using his personal Ransom Rest. The pistol did not perform well with any ammunition tried and, in fact, shot much worse than expected. Several load combinations were tried, all with similar results.

      Belatedly, he checked the rest and found that a screw securing the rest to its’ base had come loose! All that tedious time spent at the loading bench was wasted! From that day on, the author began each pistol testing session with a group from his known-to-be-good “control” match handload, to verify that the system was working correctly.

      Part 2Keep good records! Mark and label your test ammunition so that cartridges can be identified should a box get mixed up. This can prevent much needless confusion and suffering. Keep both ammo and test results well organized. Scrawled abbreviations on disorganized targets with incomplete data can be very hard to interpret, months after the fact.

      Instead, immediately measure groups and record them in a well-organized notebook or record system. This will ensure your components, loading and testing time will not be for naught.

      Several target measuring computer programs/apps are available. These record not only the load/firearm data, but retain photos of the targets with precision measurements illustrated. They are a great way to quickly and compactly organize and track your work.

      Part 3–Bench testing technique: Firing a rifle to obtain its’ maximum accuracy from a sandbag rest uses much the same theory as a quality machine rest. The key mantra here is *the rest does all the work*–i.e., the rifle should be fully supported by whatever rest/bag method you choose, and as little muscular effort as possible should be used to “steer” it or keep it on target.

      Obviously, the tensions of one’s cheek on the stock, butt against the shoulder, firing hand on the grip, etc. will differ when testing a .22 rimfire vs., say, a .300 WSM. Rifles generating more recoil require greater control for consistent performance.

      However, the key here is *consistency*. Learn and strive to always use highly consistent pressure on the grip, cheekpiece and buttstock for every shot to ensure accurate results.

      Set up the rifle so that the crosshairs are exactly on the aiming point when supported by the rest, without the shooter’s touching the rifle at all. That is the ideal. The shooter should exert as little muscular control over the rifle as possible to keep it on target during firing.

      Sub-optimal benches, rests or positions may require very slight adjustments to perfect the aim while testing. However, as much as possible, those adjustments should be made via the rest/bags.

      Upon firing, the rifle should slide straight to the rear in recoil. After firing, the rifle should be returned to its’ original position, crosshair alignment and bag stability checked, and the next shot is carefully taken. Early on, this may seem almost an excruciatingly slow process. However, with practice it becomes natural and one can do it quickly and efficiently, so don’t be discouraged.

      Note the details of the machine rest in Photo 1 at the top of this article. This rest, designed and built by the AMU’s Custom Firearms Shop (CFS), allows the rifle to track straight to the rear very precisely.

      Great care was taken to ensure that it had optimum, smooth and consistent resistance on the rails (below the bed) to dampen recoil uniformly. After firing, the rifle is carefully returned to the original firing position without handling it roughly or bumping it to induce vibration.

      This rest gives excellent results with a wide variety of rifles ranging from 5.56mm to large magnums. The straight-line tracking of this type rest is the goal for one to emulate when shooting from a bench.

      AMU CFS Test and Handloading personnel also test rifles from various benchrest, bag and bipod setups at distances to 1000 yards and beyond. This is an important skill, which is perishable if not practiced periodically once it’s been finely developed.

      Photo 2: A purpose-built, portable rest and rear bag for accuracy testing.

      Part 4–What type of rest is needed? Many shooters use well-built, adjustable “benchrest” style pedestals (See Photo 2 above). These feature integral sandbags to support the fore-end, along with fine, lockable elevation adjustments. In addition, various “eared” type leather/cordura sandbags are used to support the buttstock.

      Having a precision rest, especially with an adjustable top that allows fitting the sides to each rifle’s fore-end, can greatly simplify testing. Moreover, a rear sandbag that matches the stock’s bottom contour well also helps streamline testing.

      Expensive equipment, however, is not a requirement. Excellent shooting can be done with simple canvas bags filled with sand, stacked and arranged to give stable, consistent support to the rifle.

      For decades, the ubiquitous homemade sandbags have employed empty 25-lb. birdshot bags, lined with plastic and held closed with a simple twist of wire. In this case, use a number of bags to build a sturdy, stable platform for the fore-end, rather than just a couple of bags stacked on top of each other.

      In the end, having a good understanding of the fundamentals, plus good technique helps far more than having expensive equipment without the skill to exploit it!

      Accuracy and Chronograph Testing, Part 2

      by U.S. Army, Army Marksmanship Unit, Custom Firearms Shop – Friday, August 12, 2016

      WARNING: All technical data in this publication, especially for handloading, reflect the limited experience of individuals using specific tools, products, equipment and components under specific conditions and circumstances not necessarily reported in the article and over which the National Rifle Association (NRA) has no control. The data has not otherwise been tested or verified by the NRA. The NRA, its agents, officers and employees accept no responsibility for the results obtained by persons using such data and disclaim all liability for any consequential injuries or damages.

      Above: Note the various angles involved in rifle’s lower buttstock, rear bag, forend, and the possibility of the sling swivel stud’s contacting the rest front if technique is inconsistent.

      In this article, we will continue exploring how to obtain the best accuracy during rifle and ammunition testing. The basics were covered in Part 1, which may be helpful for those who are relatively new to this topic.

      Avoiding Rifle Creep
      To ensure consistent positioning of the rifle for every shot, many shooters use a strip of masking tape or some stock feature as a witness mark. This helps them ensure it is aligned the same way on the rest each time after firing the rifle.

      Actual Benchrest competitors may use an adjustable post built into the front of their rest, touching the forend tip to it each time they prepare to shoot. While convenient using their flat-bottomed stocks with bags/tops that help ensure a straight-back slide in recoil, these may be less helpful with the typical NRA High Power or long-range (LR) shooter’s rifles.

      During strings of fire, be sure to return the rifle to the same location after each shot. Many newer shooters find the rifle progressively drifting backward, and even sideways, during a 5 or 10-shot string–particularly if much recoil is involved. One wants the rifle to ride smoothly and consistently on the front rest during recoil.

      Some put baby powder on their front bags to help avoid friction that induces inconsistencies. Others use thick, smooth plastic tape on their forearms and the toe of the buttstock to do the same–particularly if the forend has a rough texture or is ribbed, as with AR15 handguards.

      If a sling, front/rear sling swivel, swivel stud or bipod, etc. may contact your rest or bags during recoil, it is best to remove them for testing. Service Rifle shooters may also wish to reinforce soft leather front bags with heavy tape (e.g., “100 MPH tape”, etc.) to prevent damage from ribbed AR15 forends. Using a wide/heavy rear bag with plenty of traction on the bench can help prevent the bag’s being pushed around in recoil, which increases time re-setting the rifle between shots.

      Avoiding Rest Hop
      A valuable quality of good benchrest pedestals and bags is that they tend to be reasonably *heavy*. Cast-iron rests weighing approximately 25 lbs. are much less likely to move about during recoil than light, aluminum rests. Adding sandbags over the rest legs can help keep the rest stable in recoil. For testing purposes, mixing lead shot with the sand in one’s bags can significantly improve their stability.

      Fill rear bags tightly so they don’t sag and will maintain their adjustment. One may need different rear bags to optimize fit for different rifles. A wide variety is available with different base heights and ear lengths/widths to accommodate different stock styles.

      A small, flat bag can be useful for increasing rear bag height, but ensure that the top bag doesn’t slip when placed on the lower bag to gain elevation. A truly motivated shooter with a rear bag that likes to wander about the bench could perhaps add skateboard tape to the bottom for serious grip!

      Avoiding Rifle Hop
      How one handles the rifle on the bags is a technique in itself. True Benchrest competitors use stocks that are purpose-built to be fired from a closely-matching set of front and rear bags.

      They sport low combs, short buttstocks and approximately 3″ wide, flat forends. While miserable to attempt to use in the field, they slide back freely in a straight line like little machine rests. This facilitates obtaining superior accuracy.

      One popular technique with these mild caliber, relatively heavy rifles is to fire them “free recoil.” That is, once they are perfectly aligned on the target using only the rest, the shooter no longer touches the rifle except at the trigger. He watches for his chosen wind condition, touches the 2-ounce trigger, and the rifle does the rest (as it were…).

      This illustrates the theory of rest shooting very well–the rest does the work, the shooter doesn’t influence or steer the rifle during firing, and no inconsistent body pressure is placed on the rifle. However, it’s only appropriate for a relative few. Most Match, Service or hunting rifles are not nearly so well-adapted to rest shooting, and they often have enough recoil that the shooter is needed to provide a “backstop,” if nothing else.

      As rifle ergonomics get more complicated and recoil increases, one will often see shooters using various techniques to hold the rifle steady during firing, absorb recoil, etc. Often, shooters will leave their front hand (support hand) off the rifle entirely, depending on the front rest and forend to perform uniformly in recoil.

      Some who opt for this use their non-firing hand (support hand) to pinch the toe of the stock near the rear bag to add stability. Many others use their non-firing hand to grip the rear sandbag; some like to squeeze the bag to exactly adjust height for each shot, thus obtaining a perfect sight picture.

      One potential problem with squeezing the bag is that the bag’s adjustment is under muscular tension. This can vary, and is not 100 percent consistent from shot to shot. Even though one is not touching the rifle butt with the non-firing hand, one is controlling it consciously via the rear bag. When well-practiced, however, this can be a very effective method.

      An alternate use for the non-firing hand that the author finds helpful with AR15 Match and Service Rifles is to use it to stabilize the pistol grip as the rifle torques during firing. The rifle’s tendency to cant from side to side is exacerbated by the typical round forend of such rifles.

      Here, the use of the support hand to prevent such movement actually seems to help. Conversely, it is very easy for a less-practiced shooter to *cause* cant and inconsistency with these rifles. Poor control and inconsistency with the pistol grip wreaks havoc on accuracy!

      Rifle Hop, Explained
      In rifles of light to moderate weight with significant recoil, one can easily see the rifle’s entire front end fly up off the rest when using only the firing hand. The author discovered this “rifle hop” many years ago when testing a custom, 8 lb. (complete) 7mm hunting rifle.

      It would place two shots at 100 yards very close together, but a vertical flier always seemed to spoil the groups. This was maddening, as the level of precision that went into the rifle and ammunition was far too high to suggest a rifle-related problem.

      Then, the author noted that the rifle’s forend was, indeed, jumping up off the rest periodically upon firing. He found that by reaching around the rest and lightly gripping the forend forward of the rest, the vertical fliers instantly went away! The rifle began shooting sub-1/2 MOA, and both went on to live happily ever after.

      Here, the goal is not to man-handle the rifle and wrestle it down onto the rest so that it can’t possibly move. Rather, one only applies enough grip to *slow* the forend during recoil and keep it from leaping skyward. The forend still moves in recoil, but is kept on a straight, rearward path.

      The author has used this technique for decades now with such rifles and found it very helpful.

      Others with whom the author has shared this technique have also found improvement in their shooting vs. the old “virtually free recoil” approach. Typical NRA High Power Match Rifles and Service Rifles are usually heavy enough that “rifle hop” isn’t likely to be a problem, but it is well to be aware of it, just in case.

      thanks to the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit for the reprint of this article.

    • #29412
      WCM
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      I have that exact same Sinclair front rest.My rear bag looks the same as well.
      All good advice. Consistency in form.

    • #29413
      Sgt. Mike
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      In the AMU article I don’t use their method for Rifle Hop just thought that I would share the information though

      Also added Part two to the original post so it could be read in one sitting versus going page to page just a method

    • #29415
      Sgt. Mike
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      popper;n8770 wrote: Why do I test @ 50 before 100? First day test – 8gr. unique under 170 PB, 33gr. LeverE under 185gr GC in a 336 30/30. 2nd day, upped to 9 gr. unique, same 185 gr. GC load seated 0.020 deeper to prevent jamming the lands. 170 load should be ~ 1300+, 185 load is stiff ~ 2100 – chrony next time and drop to 30 gr. powder. It’s close to limit on alloy, from the cloud of white smoke I get.Unique load din’t open up much between 50 & 100, just 5″ lower. 185 load did, shot much higher (recoil problem for ME) & 1/2 the 185 shots were above paper so double the vertical for 100. Left to right 170,170, 185..

      Popper look forward to the chronograph results on the load.
      When you get the chance of course.
      The 336 looks ready for the NRA Long range 1000yard match for cast.

      Just looked over the rules 2 sighter’s – 10 shots x 3 min per record shot = 30 min, aiming black is a little over 4 MOA.

    • #29427
      popper
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      That 33gr load is just too much for me, recoil wise, almost got a eye ding from the scope on one round.. Primers just starting to flatten so not full bore. I’ll up the unique load to 9 1/2 & 10 to see if I can get rid of the drop, for a piggy poker to 75. Not really a deer hunter, passed on 3 last year. Big doe walked right under the stand, could have been a 150. Oh, I expect that the 185 load should be ~2k fps. Sized down to 308 it fits my BO too,prolly in the 1500 fps range.

    • #29432
      Sgt. Mike
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      BTW Popper,
      seen the weather was bad your way, hopefully your not affected much.
      On the forearm jump look at that article I posted might help, but usually when I was doing High Power we would weight the but to reduce the muzzle rise and recoil, just a thought might help the balance too in off hand.

    • #29437
      Sgt. Mike
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      Just seen a interesting paper from China related to the subject ( http://www.ijmmm.org/vol3/182-JM015.pdf)
      I ‘ll except some for the sake of being brief to get to the point.
      X distance versus Z distance x being a shorter distance Z being a longer distance

      Quote:

      Weapons systems production and processing is a complex process, despite the strict control of the production conditions, there are individual differences, but also in the shooting, also
      cannot control the shooting condition and weather condition completely, so the ammunition in the placement appears scatter is inevitable. Because of effect of initial velocity, angle and the ballistic coefficient and the resulting dispersal distance; direction spread because of azimuth angle, initial disturbance and the bias current (drift) effect. So, the
      intensity of weapon system is affected by many uncertain factors, therefore, the intensity of result evaluation should not only rely on the small sample test data were randomly selected to, but should use the method of mathematical statistics to carry on the system analysis. The current domestic dispersion test [1], mainly has the following two kinds of test and evaluation methods:

      A : A Series of Test Method:
      Tested under the condition of normal temperature is shooting 6 groups, 20 in each group, the mean value of the test results are compared with the tactical and technical index, and get the conclusion of the sample dispersion whether meet the requirements.

      B. The Method of Hypothesis Testing

      Statistical analysis of experimental data, using K2 test on the tested concentration whether meet the requirements given the exact conclusion.

      At present, the range of dispersion test is taken by the first method, this method is based on the test data are averaged to eliminate the uncertainty of shooting and meteorological conditions of the resulting effects on the dispersion, the estimated value is closer to the true intensity of the test values.

      Undisputed, this approach does reduce the influence of random factors in a certain extent, but only decreases and has not been completely eliminated, effect still exists, but inversely with the amount of sample selection, the larger the sample size, the less effect, shooting range test data is more close to the true value, but the actual situation is not possible samples range test the extracted amount is large enough, so the estimate value does not exist can be compared with the true value. In this paper, statistical analysis, and strive to draw the permissible level of significance, and kept within the limits of pseudo-probability optimum firing.
      End quote:

      Lets look at some tables now China is metric soooo:
      Each group sample size was 20 shots for 6 iterations to establish a accuracy dispersion data (aka CONE OF FIRE by the US Military)
      The sample size is 120 rounds. I added the Average and SD tables for statistical comparison.

      TABLE I: A SMALL-BORE RIFLE BULLET DISPERSION TEST FOR 100M (cm)
      Sample2005200420021999
      12.21.822.11.3
      21.92.12.71.8
      32.31.61.91.9
      41.71.92.31.4
      52.12.12.21.2
      62.11.72.21.1
      Average2.051.872.23333333331.45
      SD0.21679483390.20542638580.26583202720.3271085447

      in english:

      TABLE I: A SMALL-BORE RIFLE BULLET DISPERSION TEST FOR 109.3 yards (in)
      Sample2005200420021999
      10.90.70.80.5
      20.70.81.10.7
      30.90.60.70.7
      40.70.70.90.5
      50.80.80.90.5
      60.80.70.90.4
      Average0.80.70.90.6
      SD0.10.10.10.1

      so they fired at 300m in metric:

      TABLE I I: A SMALL-BORE RIFLE BULLET DISPERSION TEST FOR 300M (cm)
      Sample2005200420021999
      16.28.78.15.2
      275.85.14.9
      36.28.964.5
      46.56.14.64.2
      575.45.85.2
      64.56.55.65.4
      Average6.23333333336.95.86666666674.9
      SD0.92231592561.51657508881.20609562920.4647580015

      now same data in english:

      TABLE I I: A SMALL-BORE RIFLE BULLET DISPERSION TEST FOR 328yds (in)
      Sample2005200420021999
      12.43.43.22.0
      22.72.32.01.9
      32.43.52.31.8
      42.52.41.81.6
      52.72.12.32.0
      61.82.52.22.1
      Average2.42.72.31.9
      SD0.40.60.50.2

      But what if we had used 100m in lieu of actual firing because we was developing a 300m load at 100m note this was not in the article I used the data reported to do a comparison.
      Now some will say the distance was not exactly half the desired distance well the report din’t have the tables for 200m or I would have used it.

      TABLE III: A SMALL-BORE RIFLE BULLET DISPERSION predictive at 109.3 yds compared to actual 328 yards (in)
      Sample2005200420021999
      PredictiveActualDifferencePredictiveActualDifferencePredictiveActualDifferencePredictiveActualDifference
      12.62.40.1562.12.00.10142.53.2-0.7021.5212.028-0.507
      22.22.7-0.5072.51.90.5463.22.01.172.1061.9110.195
      32.72.40.2731.91.80.1172.22.3-0.1172.2231.7550.468
      42.02.5-0.5462.21.60.5852.71.80.8971.6381.6380
      52.52.7-0.2732.52.00.4292.62.30.3121.4042.028-0.624
      62.51.80.7022.02.1-0.1172.62.20.391.2872.106-0.819
      Average2.402.430.03252.191.91-0.27692.612.29-0.3251.701.910.2145
      -0.088725

      Hmm some of the predictive data would have cause me to overlook an accurate load, and some would have cause me to waste resources because I have had to shoot twice only to find out it was larger.

      To some this matter to some it does not, as they prefer to shoot a shorter range. My advice if you want to shoot X distance then it’s only good for that range only. Predictions are great for psychics, but honestly my crystal ball is broke. The data above proves to me that if I use predictive data I’ll be wrong 100% of the time, can I use it as a guide sure but I’ll still want to use real data to validate.

      Now all this would probably be a moot point to the thirty-thirty crowd AKA MOD (Minute Of Deer) Guys which is great, and not worth arguing over. And no

      I’m not looking down on or demeaning those great American marksmen they have a different objective than a group shooter. They are looking for meat not bug hole group size. I’m presenting data that is all, I stated what my thoughts was. Take it or leave it all this was free information LOL.

      Bottom line it only matters if it matter to the loose nut behind the trigger.

      Back to the article though which was about using a smaller sample size 20 versus 10, here is the conclusions without all the math, graphs and charts :

      Quote:

      From the above analysis results show that, for small-bore rifle bullet, the best number of bullet samples and packet for dispersion test should be: overall sample size of 40 bullets, 4 groups, each group of 10 rounds.: total number of samples taken 40 bullets, divided into 4 groups, each group has 10 bullet. Using the method described in this article, can be based on extensive experimental dispersion data, scientific and intensive sample take the bullet test.
      End Quote:

      Now so we are all on the same page in the military ( all of them regardless of nation) small bore does not mean 22 LR it means under 20mm bore

    • #29439
      popper
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      Typical math mubojumbo. States a known that more samples are needed to find the math centroid ( cone of fire) at longer range due to increased ‘variables. Shooter, weather, etc. Just like weighing boolits, a distribution curve with outliers we call fliers.

    • #29440
      Sgt. Mike
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      popper;n8820 wrote: Typical math mubojumbo. States a known that more samples are needed to find the math centroid ( cone of fire) at longer range due to increased ‘variables. Shooter, weather, etc. Just like weighing boolits, a distribution curve with outliers we call fliers.

      Like I said and not worth arguing over.

      But, fact is I don’t call the group fliers

    • #29449
      Butch Wax
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      Fliers. Oh sure I’ll have one here and there. Not so many when I was younger though. But I’m pushing close to my seventh decade on this planet. A heart attack and two mild strokes didn’t help much in making me rock solid like in my youth. So when I see a pretty tight and precise group with one off to the left or something, I KNOW what caused it…. ME!

      And you boys settle down there in the livingroom. Don’t make me come in there with my belt.;):p

    • #29450
      Sgt. Mike
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      Butch Wax;n8833 wrote: ……And you boys settle down there in the livingroom. Don’t make me come in there with my belt.;):p

      OK Daddy LOL

      While I’m poking fun at Popper in my last remark I do respect his opinion. If ya’ll had a camera here at the house when I read his quote Typical math mubojumbo end quote statement I smiled
      Now for his purposes he is probably right on for his objectives . And no I’m not wound up, hopefully he isn’t either just a little bit of fun natured ribbing there is all.
      BTW still giggling over his response I have used the same type response a time or two.

    • #29451
      Sgt. Mike
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      Oh if one really pays attention I did not debate the x number of shot versus a higher number of shots. Throw that idea out ( 20 vs 10 shot groups) I stated it so everyone knew what they was doing. The topic is shorter range results versus longer range results.

      I’m using the tables to show why I think a shorter range does not return valid good results for the desired range. But honestly if it makes somebody happy to use 50 yards then by all means have at it.

      Side note aka thread drift
      in a different thread I ran ballistic tables comparing two different Cast bullets the 30 XCB vs the 198 gr NOE.My objective was to see by the tables how far each would travel before hitting the transonic regions and becoming unsettled.

      I found that it was odd that the 165gr would travel 100 yards more than the 198grs before hitting transonic region. What will tell the tale will be when I actually decide to shoot the longer ranges.

    • #29454
      popper
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      Did you notice, if I interpret the data correctly, that their shooting AND predictions grew worse with the years?. Remember HS algebra when you learned how many simultaneous equations are required to solve for a defined number of variables (like wind changes down range)? IMHO that article has zero validity. The real answer comes from a mechanized gun firing long strings at different ranges, then determining when the sigma (cone of fire pattern) is reached. Sort of like shotgun patterning. We have a lot more variables to add as we reload imperfect ammo. IIRC I posted a target of cone of fire very well defined (coating thread). I was always amazed our gunner could lob an 8″ >10 mi & hit the target 2x in a row, gun & target floating.

    • #29460
      Sgt. Mike
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      Short answer no, Popper you did not interpret correctly.

      But it’s ok.

      Let’s move on shall we

      Fliers…………. yeah I hate it when they show up at the 12’Oclock position at 100 yards
      30XCB bullet (sized .310″) in a 30-06 with 20 grs of IMR 4227 1-13.5 twist (group size is 7) Lube is White label lube 2700 plus from our very own Lars45

      Need to shoot that load several more times to see if it was fluke. Right now I suspect that it is.

      Before moving out to 200
      have I had them (fliers) way out there sure have usually figured they was caused by me so I included them

    • #29468
      popper
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      SgtMike – just calling BS on the article, not arguing with you. Refer to my target ~ 100, circle of 1″ radii – 8 shots, WCM is correct, if I had fired that ~ 50, it would appear to be a ‘good’ group. Still good for deer ~ 100. At 200 the pattern would probably not be recognizable unless a lot more shots were taken. As these were PB cast (non-flat bases – from the same session), it would probably take strings of 20 shots with targets overlaid to ‘see’ the pattern. Any one can plug data into a formula and get an ‘answer’ but often it is not real world. QC people do it all the time but it is a controllable environment, ours isn’t.

    • #29470
      Goodsteel
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      Fine shooting sir! groups like that don’t need much of a commentary do they?

    • #29474
      Sgt. Mike
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      Popper no problem, don’t worry about it, let’s move on with the topic and discussions, there is no problems on my end.

      Still looking forward to your results from the 336, and other shooting.

      Everyone
      I was at fliers I know some count them some don’t …. personally I do as they are usually caused (this is my opinion part) by either imbalance of what I casted or loaded, or by my actions as a shooter. If I pulled the shot knowingly before seeing impact, I’ll start (reshoot) a test group all over if I called the flier, if I didn’t call the flier it’s included.

      Now opinions are like keesters everyone has them, so what say ya’ll .
      count them or not.

      (BTW I’ll post the 200 yard on that load that I showed a coupla post up, let’s see what happens, theoretically at 1.095″- .308″ = .787″ ctc, so x 2 it should be 1.574″ ctc group at 200. Let’s see if it holds or not. Horizontal stringing, causes can be the windage adjustment on my bases not tight enough, windage erector not settled in the scope, scope height not high enough over the barrel mounting block with erratic vibrations, I canted the rifle, the rounds was starting to produce a larger group that higher rounds count would show, or light /heavy charges which usually show as a vertical but sometime manifest in the horizontal plane vs the vertical. The 200 yard group will tell the tale so to speak. )

    • #29475
      Goodsteel
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      I know what a good shooting rifle is like. You point it at a spot and it eats that spot away. My 300WinMag is like that. I could absolutely throw out everything I know about making the perfect shot. Just bang away at the target, and you know what? I can’t make the group bigger than 2″ unless I honestly aim at another spot. If I take my time and make it count, it’ll eat a ragged ten shot hole.

      Now, say I set that rifle down and pick up another one. 5 shots look like they might be less than an inch, three were slightly out of the cluster, and there was one that hit 2″ high. Do you really think I’m going to say “Oh silly me. I pulled that one. And that one. And this one here is almost in, so we’ll call it 1”,
      Then pick up my 300 and start cutting the center out again and say “hey, I must have gotten back on my game!”
      Then pick up the second rifle again and say “darn, I’m just not shooting very well today”.

      A good rifle with good ammo and a good shooter makes good groups. Period.
      It’s true that the shooter can make a big difference (and I’ve had clients that couldn’t shoot light weight rifles anywhere close to the precision I demonstrated upon completing the build) but that’s the exception rather than the norm. Most of the time large groups are caused by using a lousy rifle with lousy ammo and trying to see it as something more than what it really is, and because we are such experts at spinning the results (sometimes makes Hillary look like an ameture) we never learn where the problem is, and will never fix it either. That’s a shame.

      Why am I so passionate about this? For the same reason I build these rifles: I used to play that game with the best of them! I would bang away with a crappy rifle and I reloaded crappy ammo and I did it for YEARS. My dad was no help. He just told me the rifle is more accurate than I was and to keep trying. So I did.
      It wasn’t until I was well into my twenties I finally got ahold of a truly accurate rifle, and it changed everything for me. Suddenly I wanted to see how many bullets I could throw through a single ragged hole. Suddenly I wanted to see just how far I could shoot. Suddenly, I could see exactly what I needed to work on as a marksman. Suddenly I felt like a jackass for burning so much powder and lead doing it wrong, and being too suborn and stupid to realize my “shooting skill” was the definition of insanity.

      I was jaded for quite some time, and I just didn’t have much use for a rifle that wouldn’t shoot, but finding a good shooting rifle was like looking for a needle in a haystack. Well, at the bargain basement price-point I insisted on, it was. Using the cheapest bullets I could pry my wallet open wide enough to buy, it was doubly unlikely. I got a few average rifles and I learned to play the incessant called fliers head games, but I couldn’t forget what it was like to shoot that superbly accurate bolt gun (which BTW was a Tikka T3 and one that I spent more money on than any other rifle up to that point).

      So finally, I had to face it. I asked myself: “are you here to hit what you’re shooting at, or just to make noise?” Well, I decided that if all I wanted was to make noise, firecrackers and a hole punch made a whole lot more sense.
      However, hitting what I’m shooting at is the goal, and I’m still trying to do it as inexpensively as possible, but I won’t compromise quality nor try to convince myself a rifle that’s a one-pellet-at-a-time shotgun is a precision rifle with a few character flaws.

      It makes logical sense to use discrimination when choosing a rifle and working up loads for it too. I can honestly say that I spent more money and time trying to make the garbage rifles shoot fair, than I ever did making a good quality rifle shoot superb, because I was willing to call a bad group a bad group, and I was willing to do what was necessary to fix it.
      At this point I can usually tell within 20 shots whether a rifle is worth my time or not, and I can usually tell within 20 shots whether a load is good or not (two tens shot on different days). If anything is out of spec, I move on. Life’s too short to play head games over a tool that doesn’t do what it’s supposed to do, and if I wanted a gun that shot more than 2″ at 100 yards, I’d buy a shotgun.

    • #29553
      popper
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      Wondered why that 100 target was down and left for the unique loads. I’d remounted (1 piece mount), after the SeeAll test. Cross hairs tilted! Got to fix that before dove season/piggy poking. Bore is lightly leaded from the hot loads. Wanted to go chrony today but it’s too overcast so I’ll finish up the BLL on the 170 PB and do some 30gr for the 185GC’d.. Guess you all in Ar are getting all our rain.

    • #29555
      Goodsteel
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      popper;n8996 wrote: Wondered why that 100 target was down and left for the unique loads. I’d remounted (1 piece mount), after the SeeAll test. Cross hairs tilted! Got to fix that before dove season/piggy poking. Bore is lightly leaded from the hot loads. Wanted to go chrony today but it’s too overcast so I’ll finish up the BLL on the 170 PB and do some 30gr for the 185GC’d.. Guess you all in Ar are getting all our rain.

      You aint just whislin dixie brother. It’s been raining here off and on for almost a week. It’s wonderful to get a break from the heat, but my toes are rotting off from standing in wet boots all the time.

    • #29582
      popper
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      Finally got an inch last nite, been splitting around DFW and south on the train to you. I was supposed to go to Branson last week – would not have been fun.

    • #29690
      reloader762
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      For me 50 yd. repeatable groups that you can cover with a quarter or less are pretty much the best I can do at the moment,a few of my rifle have optics but most or open sights. Where I live now I have to go to my buddies house to shoot 50 yds. as it’s a pretty rural setting around here but there is always a house in the way it seem in every direction close enough not to be safe to shoot in that direction. The only ranges remotely close that you can shoot form 100 to 300 yds. cost around 1K to join plus a $250 annual fee which I totally understand to keep out the yahoo’s,but on a one income family budget it ain’t happening.

      A public range I use to go to is about two hours away from me now,I do get to make that trip about twice a year to verify my go to loads at 100 yds. but it’s an all day trip as it stays pretty busy and it’s first come first serve an you just have to wait your turn. But I enjoy talking to other shooter,helping out first time shooters with issues and picking up all that free brass. I envy you guys for lack of a better term that have decent places to shoot especially at really long ranges,I’ve always wanted to try that.

    • #29691
      Goodsteel
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      reloader762;n9192 wrote: For me 50 yd. repeatable groups that you can cover with a quarter or less are pretty much the best I can do at the moment,a few of my rifle have optics but most or open sights. Where I live now I have to go to my buddies house to shoot 50 yds. as it’s a pretty rural setting around here but there is always a house in the way it seem in every direction close enough not to be safe to shoot in that direction. The only ranges remotely close that you can shoot form 100 to 300 yds. cost around 1K to join plus a $250 annual fee which I totally understand to keep out the yahoo’s,but on a one income family budget it ain’t happening.

      A public range I use to go to is about two hours away from me now,I do get to make that trip about twice a year to verify my go to loads at 100 yds. but it’s an all day trip as it stays pretty busy and it’s first come first serve an you just have to wait your turn. But I enjoy talking to other shooter,helping out first time shooters with issues and picking up all that free brass. I envy you guys for lack of a better term that have decent places to shoot especially at really long ranges,I’ve always wanted to try that.

      If you ever want to take a field trip, come on out here and we’ll have a fine time. I’ve got a bit of a hotel room I’m putting together upstairs, we eat real well around here, and rifle shooting is a way of life here.
      We’ve got the 100 yard test range out back, and across the road there’s the 200 yard game and fish range, about 5 miles up the road there’s my buddy’s “field of dreams” 600 yard range, and about an hour south we’ve got the 600 yard Benton gun club range (pretty posh setup if you ask me).
      Yep, ship your bullets, brass, and rifle ahead of time, I’ll sell you primers and powder at cost, and by the time you leave, your barrel should be a good 1/2″ longer!
      LOL!

    • #29696
      popper
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      ship your bullets, brass, and rifle ahead of time

      Something new about Ar? Thanks for larger print and better color. Now if I can just re-locate the caps lock on this keyboard!

    • #29713
      Sgt. Mike
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      popper;n9200 wrote: Something new about Ar? Thanks for larger print and better color. Now if I can just re-locate the caps lock on this keyboard!

      No Popper nothing new about AR same laws as always.
      Tim I’m guessing is thinking that he (Reloader 762) would fly which it is easier to ship the bullets, brass and rifle prior (even though one can fly with the rifle just saves hassle).

    • #29717
      Goodsteel
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      Sarge is right. I have clients who hunt Alaska, and they ship their guns up there ahead of time because it sucks to get to the hunt of a lifetime and have to borrow a rifle because the airline lost your luggage.
      If I ever fly anywhere with intentions to shoot when I get there, I’m shipping the rifle ahead.

      There are times you might want to ship the rifle even if you’re driving.
      For instance, would you drive through Illinois with a rifle, ammo, and brass in the back?
      Not me thanks!!!!

    • #29743
      popper
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      Mike – the 170 PB is going 1445 avg with 10 gr. Unique. Didn’t load anymore 33gr. but 185GC does 1945 with 30gr. LeverE, both PCd. Funny, Unique gave better ES than LeverE and was better without filler. Lubed with BLL they went a tad slower! I’ll try pushing the 170 load, 3″ drop @ 100 isn’t bad. Unique does show a little of the normal vertical or maybe it was me after 50 rnds on the chrony, then a couple 5 shot strings for accuracy. Thundering now so glad I get er done this morning – still hot & humid.

    • #30051
      reloader762
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      Goodsteel thanks for the offer and it’s much appreciated. I would like to say I would take you up on that but in reality I know I probably never will as it’s really hard for me to get away for much time at all these days. I have a family to take care of which includes a couple children with some disabilities nothing severe but they require lots of attention and extra help as well as elderly parents that require a good bit of help these days plus I have a full time job at a place of business that has about half the employees it needs so I wear lots of hats. All in all though I feel blessed,there are many things I have wanted in this life or a chance to do that I have yet to get or ever hope to but the Lord has always provided what I really needed so I guess I’m doing a good job in his eyes.

      All my rifles and handguns or pretty much used or old war horses I got good deals on at the time and they all seem to shoot really good without having to put much effort into load development. Don’t know if that just dump luck or what,I just put as much care into the process as I can with what I have to work with. I enjoy taking my old gun apart and doing what I can to improve them,making my own bullets and putting together loads that I take game with to put meat on my table. I did that a lot in my younger days due to necessity nowadays it’s because I can and want to. Anyway things happen as they should so I’m just along for the ride.

    • #30059
      Sgt. Mike
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      Reloader762,
      Fully understand your situation and your efforts. Best Wishes.
      I prefer the old war horses as well.

    • #30077
      Goodsteel
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      Just an update:
      Sgt.Mike came over Saturday and Sunday along with my sister and brother in law and they helped move the bluing shed. It was an epic project.
      I’ll post pictures soon, but it’s balls to the wall till I get everything running and set up.

      A friend came and helped wire the shop last week, so all the conduit is run and I have juice.
      The VFD is still at the other place and I have to tie in to the power etc etc etc.

      last night I laid out the location of the new shed. I wanted it square with the house even though it’s set off a ways, so I pulled a line down the side of the house about 40 yards, and then I set my stakes to that 12’X18′.
      I borrowed the big Kabota front end loader from the guy who sold me the property, so the plan is to scrape a level place for the shed and set 6 foundation cap blocks perfectly level, then back the trailer in there and carefully lift the shed, drive out the trailer, then set the shed down 1.5″ at a time with bottle jacks and cribbage (exactly the opposite of how Sarge lifted it in the first place.
      Then I just need to run power and water to it.

      I’m worried about the water out here. It may not be suitable for bringing out the quality of bluing I insist on, so I’ll risk a tank on some of my personal firearms to prove its suitable for use on yours.

      I think I’ve got about three more trailer loads to come from the old place of various sundry shop/home goods, but the main thing I will be after is the VFD.
      When moving the lathe, it was set down hard at one point because it was tipping, and it started leaking oil badly. I figure i either just sloshed the oil bath hard enough to make it spill over some internal edge, or I cracked the headstock. Obviously, we’re praying it’s the former. Gotta get juice to it to find out if it’s still sound.

    • #30095
      reloader762
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      I’m worried about the water out here. It may not be suitable for bringing out the quality of bluing I insist on, so I’ll risk a tank on some of my personal firearms to prove its suitable for use on yours.

      How much water does it take to fill the tank and how often does it have to be changed out. Is there a cheap or not to expensive water filtration system that will make the water suitable or can you just bring some 5 gal. jugs from home.

    • #30119
      Goodsteel
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      Each bluing run consumes roughly 30-50 gallons of water, if I’m just dipping. It’s more if I use the flowing water rinse tank (which I really want to do). Hauling the water for this sort of thing is a pretty rough way to roll if you do it regularly as a part of business.
      I’ll just buy a filtration system if necessary.

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