- April 8, 2016 at 9:39 pm #26873
Many people have these old Mosin Negant rifles, and many of them absolutely require a stiff bump to get the blessed thing open. In fact, one might go as far as to say that a Mosin that doesn’t have this problem (or feel like dragging a cinder block over a gravel drive way) is actually superbly smooth.
Many people recommend polishing this surface as well as any other part with rub marks:
Honestly, this can’t hurt if you do it right and will contribute greatly to the smooth function of the rifle after you get it over the annoying bump; but bump it does, no matter what surface you might decide to polish on.
In my opinion, the area that is really to blame for your having to pop the bolt with your palm (at least a little bit) is located on the side of the bolt and bolt head.
This edge here:
And this edge here:
These two edges must slide under a corresponding “edge” located in the action at the exact moment the bolt is lifted.
You can see this edge located here:
The fix, is to take a standard file and lightly bevel these edges so they can’t hang on each other as the bolt rotates. The reason they are able to overcome each other at all, is simply because the bolt is often controlled better in the rear, and is a floppy mother on the front of the action. The rear of this edge slides cleanly into the action and literally DRAGS the front of the bolt along behind. The bolt head itself is the worst offender because it functions independently from the bolt body, and the upward pressure from manipulating the bolt knob exacerbates this issue and encourages the bolt head to hang up on the action almost like a sear and cocking piece.
You can easily test this for yourself by simply pressing down on this point with your finger while lifting the bolt:
If you pay attention, you might see the bolt ride lower through it’s stroke as you press here, and you might also notice that the bump you hit when lifting the bolt vanishes like it never happened.
The reverse is also true. If you press up very hard from the opposite side of this same point, you will sometimes find that the bolt becomes almost impossible to open at all.
This is all caused by something that you cannot see and you won’t know to look for it unless you know to look for it.
I hope this helps you.
- April 8, 2016 at 10:30 pm #26875ArtfulParticipant
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- April 9, 2016 at 2:14 am #26881GhostHawkParticipant
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Very interesting, I have a pair, one is better than the other. And I am better at that “snap” than my shooting partner.
We will take a look at it with your post in mind. Thank you!
- April 10, 2016 at 4:33 am #26889chutesnreloadsParticipant
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While not helpful for me specifically…..This is the kind of information that will keep me reading EVERYTHING on this site.Thanks Tim
- April 10, 2016 at 3:13 pm #26895
Tim, the main reason that people complain is more do to the ammo. The ammo is the problem. The heat treat is wrong for a bolt action gun. The case is swelled up so far that it is still stuck to the walls of the chamber. The steel does not contract like the brass cased ammo does. Add into it the age of the surplus ammo and it compounds the problem. The steel age hardens just like the lead that we shoot. Thats the reason that the new commercial steel ammo shoots just fine.
Yes the fix you posted will help smooth up the action cycling but it is not the root cause of the problem.
- April 10, 2016 at 3:14 pm #26896
By the way, Larry is doing some testing on a hunting bullet I made for the Mosin. Hopefully he will be posting soon about it.
- April 11, 2016 at 12:21 pm #26918
tomme boy;n5608 wrote: Tim, the main reason that people complain is more do to the ammo. The ammo is the problem. The heat treat is wrong for a bolt action gun. The case is swelled up so far that it is still stuck to the walls of the chamber. The steel does not contract like the brass cased ammo does. Add into it the age of the surplus ammo and it compounds the problem. The steel age hardens just like the lead that we shoot. Thats the reason that the new commercial steel ammo shoots just fine.
Yes the fix you posted will help smooth up the action cycling but it is not the root cause of the problem.
Bad ammo will make any rifle run bad, but if its still doing it even when you are dry cycling, its not an ammo issue, and that is the issue i am addressing with this article.
I said this in the article I posted above:
If you press up very hard from the opposite side of this same point, you will sometimes find that the bolt becomes almost impossible to open at all
Question: when you get a piece of brass stuck in the chamber, does this cause you to pull up harder on the bolt for any reason? LOL!
Just take a look at it buddy. I personally think it’s a pretty big issue, but each rifle will tell the tail I suppose.
If nothing else, the idea that you have to pop your palm on the bolt just to get it open when the gun is empty is a frustrating problem and this is the answer to making it run smooth without fighting you at the start. Just thought I’d throw it out there if it would help anybody.
- April 11, 2016 at 3:29 pm #26924
Making them run smoother by what you are showing will help. But the main issue is the ammo. This is where all of the Sticky bolt thing first came from. Kind of the same thing that happens with the AR15 rifles that can or can not shoot steel cased ammo. It is also not the so called lacquer build up. The other thing on the Mosin is the primary extraction is a joke. It depends on how many and how much the bolt handle has been ground on during referb. take a look at it and see what I mean.
- April 12, 2016 at 3:03 pm #26954
I don’t see how ammo makes the Mosin stick and hitch when its being dry cycled, which is the problem this thread is addressing. Shooting junky ammo is a different issue IMHO, and washes out this whole problem because you are doing something so basically wrong that even a first year handloader could tell you how to fix. Garbage in = garbage out.
This is GSF, and it is assumed that the loads are hand made and a cut above factory ammo, and head and shoulders above sardine can Russian garbage (otherwise known as redneck firecrackers). Members here make their own ammo and they are darn good at it. They also insist on their rifles operating correctly no matter where they were made.
So you’ve got this Mosin Negant rifle. You have scrubbed it up, you have one with a decent barrel, and you feed it ammo it likes.
You’ve got this annoying hitch in the bolt that simply won’t go away no matter what you do. You’ve tried all the normal tricks and you think you got rid of it, but it keeps happening from time to time.
Those who just shrug and say: “its a Mosin. Big deal.” or say: “hey it’s the ammo. You got a bad can of bullits. It does it even when the gun is empty, but I’m still blaming the ammo.” wont get much out of this thread.
Those who say: “gosh, I wish I didn’t have to fight this rifle all the time. I wonder if there might be a way to fix it?” might benefit from this thread.
This is the answer, and will make all the rest of the things they have done all the better.
- April 12, 2016 at 3:58 pm #26956badbob454Participant
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i had a mosin m44 that would stick so bad i had to pound the bolt up to open it ,…. took it back and swapped it for another years ago….. i found an empty shell that feeds good and no swelling would cause this issue when the firing pin struck the primer , then . and only then , did i have this problem . …….. so when i returned the rifle i tested the empty shell in the other guns and found one that was smooth , same brass , easy extraction , I dont know much about gunsmithing but this worked for me … im thinking it wasnt the brass
- April 12, 2016 at 4:53 pm #26957
badbob454;n5702 wrote: i had a mosin m44 that would stick so bad i had to pound the bolt up to open it ,…. took it back and swapped it for another years ago….. i found an empty shell that feeds good and no swelling would cause this issue when the firing pin struck the primer , then . and only then , did i have this problem . …….. so when i returned the rifle i tested the empty shell in the other guns and found one that was smooth , same brass , easy extraction , I dont know much about gunsmithing but this worked for me … im thinking it wasnt the brass
This is yet another issue. I suspect the rifle you mention had a corroded chamber that would hold the brass once expanded. Not the brass’s fault, but certainly if you use bottom shelf, “redneck firecrackers” this would be much worse. Next time, try honing your chamber.
- April 13, 2016 at 4:23 am #26984
I know what your article is saying. But the whole “sticky bolt” thing in a Mosin is not what you are addressing. It is ammo related. The sticky bolt is after the gun has been fired. Not from dry cycling the bolt. These are two totally different issues. I have owned over a 100 of these guns in the last 25 years and have had just about every one of them that has been made. Except for the 8×57 and the 3006 versions. They ALL do this with certain ammo making it worse. Smoothing the bolt up will not fix the problem of a sticky bolt. This ammo was made for the PKM belt fed full autos. They have a more robust extraction than a bolt action rifle has. the extractor holds the rim about 50% of the rim. It does not care if the case is still stuck to the walls. It is going to come out.
How many AR15’s do the same thing????
- April 13, 2016 at 2:48 pm #26994
I’ll give you that what you are talking about is a common problem. No doubt about it, but it’s not the ONLY problem. In fact, if you succeed in figuring out that running good quality ammo is kind of a good idea if you wont your firearm to run correctly, Seems like the very next most frustrating thing is what I’m talking about right here.
I have reread this thread and come to the conclusion that you might not have an issue with the content of the OP, but rather my choice of wording for the title?
That’s fair enough. Most folks who saw the title and didn’t bother to look at the pictures or read the rest of the thread might be confused.
So I can’t call it a “sticky bolt”. Let me think: what do you call it when you grab the bolt of your rifle and it seems like you have to tear it loose from its at rest position in order to cycle it? hmmmmmm Tommy doesn’t like the term “sticky” even though that pretty well sums it up. This is a problem that is encountered by an awful lot of folks right after they learned that a rifle likes to be fed the right ammo (just like their lawnmower, or car, or tractor etc etc etc: ie “what a coincidence”).
So what do you call this? I’ll be glad to change the title of the thread if somebody can tell me another way to say it that succinctly sums up the content found below the title.
All I’m trying to do is show folks who are interested a way to make their bolt stop sticking (oops, there I did it again). If it’s better left unsaid, I could just delete it?
- April 13, 2016 at 5:21 pm #27000
Don’t delete. Both of us bring up good topics for the cause of what is going on. Yours is how to make the gun run smooth and mine is the problem with Com Block steel cased ammo. It is good to have a difference of opinions as everyone wins.
- April 21, 2016 at 1:58 am #27165Larry GibsonParticipant
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My first test of your bullet in my SAKO rebuilt M39 sucked to put it bluntly. I ran the test right after I had pulled the action, D&T’d it and mounted the Weaver T-6 scope. I did that to shoot in CBA military rifle matches with it. At first I thought the poor accuracy of 3 – 4 moa was because I had pushed your bullet a bit hard but after my poor showing in a CBA match right after I knew I had somehow messed up the bedding. I used a load in the CBA match that I used to be able to hold to 1.5 moa with the issue sights. During the match at 100 yards it seemed to do that also but I had a few flyers that dropped out the bottom or went wild. At 200 yards it really fell to pieces with some pretty wild flyers. The rifle should do better.
Since I’ve been working over the bedding and hopefully have the problem solved. The Arizona State Match is this Sunday so I shall see. If I’ve not got the bedding issues solved with the M39 I’ll run some tests of your bullet through my Ishevsk (SP?) M91/28 sniper.
- April 24, 2016 at 12:40 am #27254goodyParticipant
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I don’t have one of these guns but after this article I would love to get a sticky one just to work with it! Very good article as you always do and some of us guys need all the detailed help we can get.
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