- March 11, 2017 at 12:44 am #34010
From a Mossberg Blog e-mail I received today.
Not surprising that he winds up recommending buckshot. The pellets he pours from a shell appear to be copper plated and buffered 00. This topic will always incite discussion. Personally, I think that the large sizes of birdshot are not a bad choice. #2 or BB. Then you have the heaver-than-lead rounds in like T-buck. Impressive. Myself, I have 00 loaded because it is what I had when I lived on a ranch in southern Colorado that had a lot of oak brush and coyotes. I should maybe consider going to BB now that I am in a more urban environment. Anyway, enjoy the clip, and post your comments/preferences.
- March 11, 2017 at 5:48 am #34032CA DudeParticipant
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I think you are right about inciting discussion. Home defense against two legged varmints and/or four legged critters. Not sure you will find a dual purpose round to do both. So, unlike our elected officials you will have to compromise. I would rule slugs out. The advantage of the shotgun is lots of hole for the bad guy to bleed from. If you are only going to fire one projectile at a time a light recoiling rifle with a high round count would be much better.
I would suggest testing. Pattern your shotgun using different loads at different ranges. Compare those results to the maximum ranges that are in your house (for the two legged varmints). In my house it’s about forty feet or about a ten inch pattern. Be sure to factor in the weather and season by testing penetration against commonly worn clothing and the items around the house; i.e. the Lazy Boy or anything that could be used to hide behind. Think about over penetration because the love ones still might be asleep in the next room.
I have conducted a lot of testing with a shotgun and I found that #4 Buck has proven to be the most effective in tests. I haven’t shot anyone with a shotgun so I’m short on experience there. The surface area of a charge of #4 buck is larger than 00. So if all the shot hits the bad guy the total wound channel is larger and it is more likely that more vital organs will get perforated. All a good thing; I do have experience with that.
I have also thought that a similar size steel shot might be the answer but I haven’t tested it. Steel normally has a higher initial velocity but because pellet for pellet it is lighter than lead the velocity drops much faster. That could reduction penetration if a pellet goes through the wall and travels down the street.
As for the four legged critters I haven’t used a shotgun much at all. But, if what I had worked; I would continue to use it right up to the point it stopped working.
- March 11, 2017 at 12:17 pm #34035AnonymousInactive
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An interesting website. One thing they looked at was the question of buck, bird, or slugs.
- March 11, 2017 at 1:22 pm #34037WCMParticipant
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I personally have my shotguns loaded with #4 buckshot.
The three inch shells have 41 pellets and plenty of recoil to go around.
- March 11, 2017 at 4:15 pm #34042GhostHawkParticipant
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I am not worried about someone 50 yards away. If he wants to stand out there and thumb his nose at me, and go nana nana boopoo so be it.
What concerns me is inside my doors. And that includes both target, and things I do not want to hit by accident. Such as wife, children or neighbors.
I KNOW what 7.5’s in a 2 3/4 shell will do at 15 feet. And that is the range we are talking about, inside the house, close range, too close.
To all of you who insist that you need buckshot I invite you to try this challenge.
Go to the grocery store, buy a whole chicken, or if you really want to be tough, a pork roast with the shoulder blade in it.
Take it home, slide it into an old worn out bluejeans pants leg. Tie it in there. Take it outside, hang it in a tree at chest height, bearing in mind what is behind it. Shoot it with your home defense shotgun at a measured 15 feet with a 2 3/4 load of 7.5’s.
Go look at the results and tell me you don’t see a bloody rat hole. Tell me if that hit an intruder anywhere from balls to brain that he would still be a threat!
I do not shoot people running away. I do not need a 50 yard load. If the shit hits the fan I have several rifles that will reach many multiples of that distance.
What I need from my shotgun is inside the doors protection that will not kill someone I do not mean to kill.
Now even birdshot may make it through 2 layers of 5/8ths sheetrock. Two layers of 1/2″ and I will bet even 7.5’s will penetrate. Me I am lucky, my walls are plaster and lathe covered by 5/8ths rock. So if I miss I can be pretty sure not much is coming through the far side of that wall.
But double ought buck may go through 5-9 layers of sheet rock before it stops.
But don’t take my word for it. Stand in the center of your house, where you can look down the hallways and into most rooms.
Most houses won’t exceed 20 feet without having to change position. Whatever yours is measure it, inside, and outside on the chicken.
And if you have 50 yard shots under your roof, well your a lucky man and can afford security. Why are you worried about this stuff?
- March 12, 2017 at 3:00 am #34055JPHollaParticipant
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I tested 1oz 7.5’s against 3/4in plywood with my Saiga years ago and it blew a single hole out to 11 yards. I’ve blown up varmints at about the same range with the same. No one could survive a blast to the throat at “house range.” Let alone 10.
- March 12, 2017 at 4:10 am #34056kensParticipant
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If totally inside the confines of the house, a load of birdshot would do fine. I believe that because at such close range, all the birdshot is still as close together as a clump of lead, at that range of a house room, the wad has yet to peel away. If you hit a bad guy Zombie with the full force of a total load of 1 1/4 oz #7 shot plus the wad, he is not still standing up, he is going down. Superficial wound or not, he be on the floor bleeding profusely. he might attempt to get up, but you already got time to pump him again, and again, if needed.
Could you imagine a heavy waterfowl load at nearly point blank range??? Holy smolly !!!!!
Personally I got some heavy #2 lead loads.
- March 12, 2017 at 6:41 pm #34060GoodsteelKeymaster
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God invented #4 buckshot for this purpose.
- March 12, 2017 at 9:41 pm #34061
All this time I thought God invented 4B for coyotes. LOL! Before the heavy-shot evolution, 4B was my choice when calling coyotes. I dropped them with it even out of my ML shotgun. Once I moved to AZ, I was limited to a max shot size of BB. I then found out that a load of copper plated hard BB shot was very effective, and gave a better pellet count. It will still penetrate a coyote side-to-side at 40 yards. The heaver than lead T-buck represents about the best balance of pellet count and penetration. It penetrates on par with 4B lead pellets, and you get more pellets in the shell. They are pricey, but don’t overlook them for self defense. They double as great varmint eliminators too.
A 4B story. When I got out of the navy in 1978 the military surplus store in Dodge City had a 25 lb bag of 4B. The price was $27. Seems cheap today, but back then my check from GI bill was $16 a month short of paying the rent. The ole man figured out my plight and sold it to me for $24. Said it had been hanging around too long. I saw that bag a few weeks ago, still has a little in it. I saw that ole gents face again. Made me both happy and sad.
BTW, 4B stacks in layers of 3 in a 28 gauge.
- March 13, 2017 at 2:17 am #34062kensParticipant
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Does anyone have a chart that shows how all the different buck sizes stack in the various shell gauge sizes?
- March 13, 2017 at 3:22 pm #34067
It is not that simple. If using shotcups, they have different thickness and sometimes the wall is even thicker at the bottom of the cup than the top. If loading without shotcups, the individual hull can make a difference. The reloading manuals give you the details of how many layers and how man to the layer using specific wads and hull. Most of my work has been with 12 ga. I like to use wads with shotcups. Just pattern better for me. Some wads let me use three layers of three 0B, and others only let me use layers of three if I use 1B. With thick shotcup walls I can use layers of two 0B. A web search for “circle packing” will get you some info on how many of what diameter you can get into a shell/bore/wad.
- March 30, 2017 at 11:24 pm #34371Sgt. MikeParticipant
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- March 30, 2017 at 11:27 pm #34372Sgt. MikeParticipant
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- March 31, 2017 at 7:01 pm #34386
I’ve got one of them Dracos. Can be quite fun to shoot like Hollywood. I finally put a Parabellum rail and an EOTech sight on it in 2014. It happens to be NV capable only because that was the one of the two in the store that had the reticle I liked, a circle with a dot in the middle. Wow. Now I can hit with it. Currently zeroed for 200 yards. I hope to put it on paper this weekend, weather permitting. The magazine in the photo is one I just bought a case of 42 of from Palmetto State Armory. They came in at a little under $5 each, delivered. They are made in Croatia and advertised as blemished. The only blemish I could find is shown in the second photo, some rough machining in the area where that slight recess is cut. They hold the bolt open after the last shot. I’ll report on functioning later.
- March 31, 2017 at 8:44 pm #34388popperParticipant
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Most people don’t like getting shot at so the first one usually wins if placement is right. Decent cal H.G. or good big knife. pattern is ~4″ @ 10′ for 12 or 20. S.G. may be good for a standoff situation or alert target, not much else. Those who shoot passing shot dove know what I mean.
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