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    • #33953
      kens
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      I recently purchased a brand new Rock Island 1911 .380. its the ‘Baby Rock’.
      It was in the glass case at LGS, I had heard of them and drooled to get my hands on one. I basically said , ‘give me that’ !!!
      I took it home, and lovingly massaged it, and the slide jammed, and then again, and again.
      I took it back to LGS and they returned it to Rock Island. it come back with a different magazine.
      Took it to gun range with a fresh box of white box Winshester ammo, it jammed.
      Wouldn’t strip the top round off a full magazine. Cleared that and it jammed halfway thru a magazine.
      I fiddled with it and all this was repetitive, all the jams repeated.
      I contacted Rock Island, they give me a return paperwork.
      They get it and say they run 100 rounds thru it just fine.
      I say “what kind of ammo you use”? they say they use their own Armscor ammo.
      I said I should not be forced into buying a ‘particular brand of ammo’.
      They hem & hawed over the phone. They accuse white box winchester as being ‘cheapest’ ammo.
      I said that white box winchester is ‘commercial SAAMI spec ammo’, I say this is not my personal reloads, not special HP, nor anything else special, it is white box dumb ammo.
      I said ‘if your gun won’t run with SAAMI spec ammo’ then we got a problem.
      Up until that point, they were (and I was asking) for a replacement gun.
      But that is also when they decided for me, they would return my money.
      No more negotiation on replacement, they are giving my money back, keeping the gun, no further questions to ask.
      Did I say something wrong???? What did I say wrong??

    • #33954
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      I know of a guy that that wanted a 3500 Dodge Cummins , but could only afford the 2500 heavy duty . He had driven it about 6 months an it had a sound that just didn’t fit . Not that it was wrong but it wasn’t right . On a service visit at the dealer there happened to be a Cummins rep at the dealer . The rep says ,I’m here to pick bugs , let’s take a ride . So they go for a ride , and the rep tells him that that isn’t a normal sound and he’d like to keep truck a day or 2 to see what they can do . 4 days later he calls and gets to talk to the desk , manager and the rep . The rep says we have a solution come on down . So he shows up and the rep says come on in here I have a couple of things I need you to sign . So he goes in signs some paperwork and the rep hands him a check for $500 and the keys to his brand new 12 miles on the clock 4×4 3500 SLT tow package with all of his stuff on board and installed . The check was for the new registration and the trouble . Cummins ate the difference , sales tax and fixed the loan with a $1000 balance . At the time it was the difference in an $18,000 farm work horse and $25,000 premium rodeo horse hauler . I suspect that this is a similar situation .

    • #33955
      kens
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      So then, how do I get a .45 out of a .380 ???

    • #33956
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      I’d say convince myself the money was already spent and gone and find the the 45 and pay the difference on the next toybox allowance .

    • #33961
      Rattlesnake Charlie
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      Are others who have firearms from Rock Island having problems?

      If so, is Rock Island resolving them satisfactorily?

    • #33962
      Goodsteel
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      I bought two 3.5″ 1911’s several years ago. One for myself, and one for my wife. Consecutive serial numbers. Mine ran like a top from the first shot, but Angie’s would jam at least two out of every magazine.
      Well I loaded up 600 H&G 68’s over bullseye, and went shooting. When the pistol jammed, I didn’t get frustrated, I just cleared it, and kept shooting. The jams became less and less frequent and completely dissolved by the time I had 400 rounds down range.
      Fresh parkerizing is stiff and sticky, and Armscor has a pretty tight fit on their parts.
      Sometimes a little patience is a good thing.
      I wouldn’t throw in the towel on any 1911 style pistol till I had 500 rounds down the pipe. It’s not a sloppy Glock you’ve got there. It’s an all steel gun and often things need to wear in.

    • #33963
      kens
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      Rattlesnake Charlie;n14817 wrote: Are others who have firearms from Rock Island having problems?

      If so, is Rock Island resolving them satisfactorily?

      I been searching the internet, and some others are starting to post about the .380 jamming.
      Are they resolving the issues,? Well, they do stay in contact with me, they do return messages/calls.
      However, I paid to receive, and I expect, a gun that runs. Giving my money back doesn’t make the .380 run any better.

    • #33964
      Waksupi
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      They aren’t the only company that tells you to use a certain ammo with their products. Some years ago, Chip McCormick had a sale on his 8 round .45 acp magazines. I bought a few, and had FTF regularly with all of them, usually last round. I contacted the company, and was told they would only function well with one type of ammunition. I told Chip that was pretty worthless to the shooting public, and he should state that in his advertising. Conversation ended with him being an arrogant ass, and more or less telling me, “too bad, suck it up”. No refund offered.

      I replaced the spring and follower, and they work fine as a seven round magazine.

    • #33965
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      My point is that it may be a debug buy back . The corporate strategy is that you will say hey that worked out and now that the toy fund has had a chance to roll over maybe I’ll buy an upgrade not a PPKS . The other side here is that there are know known a number guns in a range or cartridge that has an issue that they haven’t figured out how to fix on a production scale vs the this gun needs a 1# lighter spring and that one needs some hammer polish . These 3 got heavier than the curve hammer springs but these 6 we did all that to on the line are beating up the frame . I would that after 106 yrs of production anything based on the 1911 or the High Power would have the bugs pretty well worked out .

    • #33969
      kens
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      this one isnt actually based on a 1911, it is about 50% the size of a 1911A1. it is a little .380 and not a lockup design, it is blowback. It got the barrel bushing, palm safety, and all the looks of a 1911, but it is at the end of the day, a blowback action. The same ammo that jams in the Baby Rock goes thru a Makarov like crap thru a goose.

    • #33970
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      Just the mechanic in me making excuses for the engineers .
      I suspect that it is an execution of design problem . As I’ve heard once or twice ” let the rough edge drag ” but sometimes there are too many rough edges that come and go in production then you get 150 pieces that all line up with the maximum number of rough edges ,in minimum tolerance tools building minimum tolerance pieces . Good for the wear longevity , good for consistency , bad for run in and probably bad for out of the box reliability . Tight is always good over sloppy but tight is too much of a good thing in a low pressure ACP pretty fast .

      I have a rifle that I bought very cheap from a distressed owner at what was way more than the local commercial buyers would pay . It has an all but match chamber in it . It’s 06′ and I can fire form and 80% the neck to the 3rd load , counting the fire form then it has to be full lengthed and held on top to get 2 loads through it . I’m not sending a 1965 760 back to Remington for a fix instead I just FL every other cycle and hunting loads stay segregated in the FF brass so I have consistent best fit ammo that will feed every time . The mechanics solution to the “problem” .
      I had a car with a sticking valve once so I changed the oil with 3qt 10 wt and a qt of ATF in a 5qt system . Drove it about 200 miles , changed it back to 10/40 new filter and a pint of STP . Ran another 30,000 miles I know of , never hung up again . Of course I’ve seen a similar situation turn the pan into a sack full of walnuts too so in a 60k out of warranty highway motor you’re OK , probably not a good idea in a 300k around town car .

      Might be a case of polish fixes everything might be a production engineering problem .

      ​​​​​You know Rossi 92’s in 45 Colts have an aversion to Remington brass but run Starline Schofield fine ……
      ​​​​​​

    • #33972
      Goodsteel
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      Yes, I am aware.
      How many rounds through it so far?

    • #33973
      Goodsteel
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    • #33977
      kens
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      Goodsteel;n14829 wrote: https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/3/14/tested-rock-island-armory-baby-rock-m1911-a-380-acp-pistol/

      Thats all a bunch of BS.
      It is NOT “utterly reliable” with an assortment of ammo.
      I’m calling their hand on that one, and thats one of the many articles I read about the darned thing before I laid down the money.
      Reminds me of the Remington R51 fiasco. All kinds of hype before it launched, then when it showed up, it wouldn’t run.

    • #33978
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      I wasn’t going to say something like cherry picking or press prepped but it may have happened .

    • #33981
      kens
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    • #33982
      Goodsteel
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      I don’t see how that is relevent. Yours is a live fire issue. Also, its not a Kimber. Its not a Colt. Its the most inexpensive version of that handgun that can be bought. All I’m saying is, sometimes, you gotta shoot them a bit before they settle in. The old CZs were the same way. They were built so tight, they had to have 100 round through them before they started tracking, but woah baby did they shoot well once they started running.
      So, did you work through a few boxes of ammo, or shoot two magazines and call it? RIA is a great company that I have a lot of dealings with, both personally, and professionally. I don’t like the fact they are made in the Philippines, but their superb customer service has always softened my opinion a Lot. Better than you’ll get from Colt or Kimber by a long shot.
      I say all that to say this: run that firearm and give it a chance to please you. You have nothing to lose, and it might surprise you. Otherwise, crack off the coin for an American handgun that can meet your demands.
      Its just a suggestion. So take it for what its worth.

    • #33983
      Goodsteel
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      For what its worth, I’m totally willing to call a spade a spade here. I just don’t think a judgement should be made on a brand new gun from a reputable company unless its allowed to run a bit.
      that said, if you’re totally unhappy with it, let them give you a refund. No muss no fuss. Let us know how it works out!

    • #33987
      Sgt. Mike
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      Kens sounds like to me they are attempting two things by keeping your gun and giving your money back.
      1. keeping negative reviews and living up to their warranty.
      2. and or they realize they do not have the pistol design down pat.

      On the bright side you can either buy another and see if that one will run, or switch to another brand that is close to what you want.

      As the consumer I don’t think you said anything wrong.

    • #33989
      kens
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      I tried the same ammo in a different .380, it ran fine, was more accurate in the other .380.
      I am not expecting this to be a Kimber, or a race gun, or to be racing slick, I only expect it to run. I know new guns can run ‘gritty’ or ‘tight’ to whatever you call it, but it should run nonetheless.
      the baby rock was woefully inaccurate also. The 380 Makarov runs any kind of ammo, and is by far more accurate.
      Funny thing though, the baby rock had a superior trigger compared to the Mak, but the Mak was the better gun.

    • #33990
      kens
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      Tim, that youtube I posted is relevant. That is the same reason I sent it back the FIRST time.
      The SECOND time I sent it back was the live fire issue.

    • #33993
      Goodsteel
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      OK, so the gun you have now is NOT exhibiting this problem, but is jamming, and has been fired how many times?

    • #33994
      JPHolla
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      Probably because the Makarov has a fixed barrel, and probably a better quality barrel.

      Never mind, just saw it’s not based on the 1911.

    • #33997
      Goodsteel
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      I agree with you JPHolla. On both counts.

    • #33999
      kens
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      the gun had is still the same gun, it been sent back 2 times

    • #34000
      Rattlesnake Charlie
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      OK, where are you at now?
      1) The gun has been back to the manufacturer twice, and is still exhibiting malfunctions with factory ammo.
      2) How many rounds have been fired in this gun?
      3) Does this gun still malfunction with the ammo that Rock Island recommends?
      4) Is the malfunction rate the same with all “flavors” of ammo? If not, please provide some statistics. Sometimes, bullet style makes a lot of difference in autoloaders.

      I wish to see success here. I understand how frustrating it can be. A friend of mine has two Colt Mustangs. One a couple decades old and the other just a couple of years old. Both are unreliable with anything fed to them. Colt’s line is they are not yet broken in. I have a KelTek P3AT, a clone of a Walther PP, and a cheap zinc gun all in .380 ACP. All have performed flawlessly since the first round. I want to find a solution here with your gun and my friend’s pair. After spending some time with my friend’s guns, I am beginning to suspect a weakness in the design of the magazine. Just some food for thought ….

    • #34005
      kens
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      Right now, Rock Island is said to be processing a refund. They said they put 200 rounds of their own ammo thru it, flawlessly. They didn’t seem interested in a replacement, they decided for me to give me refund. My contention is that I should not have to buy specific ammo. I should be able to buy ammo anywhere be it WalMart, BassPro shops, mail order, or gun shows. I understand a no-warranty on hand loads, reloads, or specialized stuff like Zombie loads or whatnot.
      I also have a 380 Makarov and it feeds anything in the magazine.
      What Walther clone is that you have?

    • #34007
      Rattlesnake Charlie
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      In the early1990’s some company imported from Hungary with AP9 as the model. Other side of slide has C.A.I. ST. ALB. VT. About a dozen of use at work did a group buy to get a better price and save on shipping. We got them out the door for about $85 each. I spent hours cleaning mine and slicking it up because I was concerned the steel slide would eat the aluminum frame. At the range, mine shot no better than a guy next to me that had cosmoline on his ammo coming out the magazine. Mine will do an honest 3″ group at 100 ft. It may not be practical, but it kinda has that connection to James Bond. I load 100 gr RFN over 1.6 gr Red Dot for a nice target round. I keep it loaded with full power ammo, but don’t wish to challenge that aluminum frame.

    • #34008
      Goodsteel
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      I’d say this ended well then. You don’t want the product they are selling, and they won’t make you buy it. Alls well that ends well, and they’re product and customer service has been well represented here so far in my opinion, although, I can say emphatically that their 1911 clones are a different story as I found them to be excellent shooters and well backed up by an excellent warranty.
      I remember several years ago, I burned my right hand very badly on some hot oil, and found that shooting my sidearm was nearly impossible. I needed an ambidextrous safety, and any that were available from Wilson etc were $60+ and would need tuning, and grip modifications. I called Armscor and asked if they had something. $25 later new parts were on their way. Only took three days, and I was shocked when the new safety slid right in the gun and was perfect for cocked and locked carry as is. No clicks. Perfect. I was fully prepared to weld up the safety and stone it in to my standards, but that was not necessary at all. Pretty good product for the price in my opinion.

    • #34009
      Rattlesnake Charlie
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      So far, kens has had a bad experience with a Rock Island firearm. Tim has had two that he is very happy with. Rock Island has some products that are priced very appealing to the working man. I sure wish we had a larger base of experience with their products as I am getting interested. At least they seem to stand behind their product.

    • #34012
      kens
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      You guys are killing me, everybody here, and everywhere else, likes Rock Island, then I come along and buy one I been drooling over, and I get bit.
      Is it just my luck or what?

    • #34021
      Goodsteel
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      kens;n14868 wrote: You guys are killing me, everybody here, and everywhere else, likes Rock Island, then I come along and buy one I been drooling over, and I get bit.
      Is it just my luck or what?

      No, obviously, they have a product in their lineup that is finicky, which is out of character for them. Still, I don’t feel comfortable saying its total garbage unless the pistol has been thoroughly tested and given a chance. Its hard for me to see how it could run 200 rounds straight with their ammo, but can’t get through…….???? rounds with your ammo. That’s weird.

    • #34024
      kens
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      I had 6 jams within 30 rounds, then quit, and contacted them. I let them handle it from there
      I shot the same ammo thru a makarov like snot thru a goose

    • #34027
      Rattlesnake Charlie
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      kens;n14868 wrote: You guys are killing me, everybody here, and everywhere else, likes Rock Island, then I come along and buy one I been drooling over, and I get bit.
      Is it just my luck or what?

      No, I want to see a broader base. Surely there are others out there who have bought Rock Island arms. I am trying to see if this is a fluke or a trend. STATISTICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • #34031
      Goodsteel
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      There’s no statistics to be had. Armscor made there bones by pushing cheap guns that run well, and standing behind them. If they are now making a gun that jeapardizes that reputation, and there are “stats” they’ll strike it from the lineup.

    • #34038
      kens
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      Possibly this is all a magazine issue. In the video I posted above, there is a stainless mag, I had a stainless mag originally, then sent it back. it got returned sans the stainless mag.
      Maybe they have yet to get the mag issue totally resolved.
      This is all just too bad, especially since I am a 1911 fan, and not a polymer fan either. It called a ‘Baby Rock’ for good reason, it looks like, field strips, operates like, a 1911, except it is pocket sized. it got the little barrel bushing, spring plunger, all 3 1911 safeties, the only thing I found that is not 1911 is missing toggle link & barrel hood lockup. it is a blowback.
      Darnit, it is as cute as any homecoming queen, but it is too finicky to run.

    • #34044
      Rattlesnake Charlie
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      I have found magazines to be the problem with feeding auto loading pistols much more than any other. SWC’s might run a second.

    • #34114
      tomme boy
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      I have had 3 of the Armscor guns. The first was a STI Spartan. That went back to the factory STI not Armscor 3 times. The dovetails for both sites were milled wrong. Looking from the top they were off 90 deg to the frame by about 5 deg counterclockwise. And from looking from the rear of the slide they were about 5 deg counterclockwise. I took it to work and had one of our machinist measure and photograph it for me. He was also a licensed gunsmith much like Tim. Very detailed in everything he does.

      I sent it back with the pics and they sent me a brand new gun. Well guess what? Same thing was wrong with this one so back it went. This time it took about a month to get another new one back. They supposedly hand fit every part on this one. It looked awesome. They actually polished the frame and slide and blued it. It was nice! Looked perfect. Took it to the range and it kept jamming and it shot like crap!. Then it locked up solid! I took it home to try to get it apart. Ended up being the link pin fell out and jammed the barrel and slide up. Put a huge chip in the frame were the link rides. I start looking at the barrel and the last 1/4″ of the barrel had no rifling! It looked like someone ran a throating reamer into the muzzle!.

      I through a fit this time and they sent me a check back.

      Onto the second gun. It was a Citadel 45. Looks awesome but does not shoot very well for how tight the whole gun it. Well remember that barrel in the other one that was missing the rifling? Well this one was the same!. I sent it back to Armscor and they put a new barrel in it and actually throated it because I told them I shoot cast bullets. Did you know these are not throated right????? All of them are throated for jacketed. Which means NO taper. Got it back with the target they shot with load info and it was a 1 holer at 15 yds. But the barrel was not a stainless barrel it was a parkerized one. The original was stainless. So they sent me a extra 5 mags. I was happy.

      The third won was a 9mm Rock Island. It was perfect and continued to be perfect till I got rid of it to a friend and has put over 20K rounds through it. He changes out the spring every 6K rounds and it just keeps going. And it is still as tight as it was when I sold it to him.

      So no you are not the only one with problems with these guns.

    • #34117
      Goodsteel
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      Very well accounted. Thank you for weighing in!

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