This topic contains 22 replies, has 1 voice, and was last updated by  Reg 3 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #26520
     Reg 
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    Have stumbled across a Numrich underhammer in 36 caliber and my experience with such things is really limited. Looks like it might be a lot of fun to harass the rabbits with.
    What would be a good starting place with Triple Seven pr Pyrodex ? Far as I can tell we don’t have any access to regular black without going into Denver and with the traffic they have up there— no thank you. Even Cabela’s in Sidney won’t carry it so they said.

  • #26524
     oldblinddog 
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    For Pyrodex try 40 gr equivalent volume. I would also try 30 gr.

  • #26528
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    See the ideas and tricks forum for the ownself powder thread . Completely eliminating the powder problem. .
    I prefrontal Pyro over 777 if I have to use 1 of them . The Pyro seems to be less not BP than 777.

  • #26529
     Reg 
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    oldblinddog;n5116 wrote: For Pyrodex try 40 gr equivalent volume. I would also try 30 gr.

    Same for 777 ?

  • #26551
     Screwbolts 
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    Reg, I have no experience with a 36 cal Numrich Arms replica of the H&A Underhammer of the 36 caliber. But I did in fact, unverifiable by any here, burn out the barrel of a Numeric arms replica of the Hopkins & Allen Underhammer in .45 cal. That was a copy of what was called ” the Offhand ” model, 32″ of 1×48 twist heavy barrel that loved .440 balls. after more than 3000 caps later it would no longer hold a pie plate at 30 yards, the barrel was burned out at the breech.

    On the farm it was not uncommon on rainy days to go threw a pound of BP or pyrodex in one afternoon with that rifle. The back door of the pole barn opened up to a target rich environment, cow patties, dandelions, rocks, fruit shoots. (You know what is left out of them cases of fruit bought as a school fund raiser). with 4 brothers, acouple of sisters and a dad that all enjoyed shooting that old warm underhammer could and did on many occasion go threw a couple tins of caps and a jug of powder, shooting 30 and 45 gr equivilents, great fun, no recoil, hand that thing around in rotation. Many deer were also harvested with that underhammer.

    Why are there no photos of your 36 cal? I believe that the above listed loads would be way, way more than adequate for hunting small game with a ball. I would probably us 25 to 30. in the 36 for most recreational shooting. Clean, more thrifty, very high in the giggle facter department.

    Check for flex in the attachment of the butt stock to the back of the curved receiver, the tennion , if the right name that the butt slides over isn’t all that long and my 45 split the narrow wrist of the butt stock.
    Remove the butt pad and with a light, carfully center a wide flatblade screw driver in the 14×20 screw and snug it up. I drilled and epoxy pinned my wrist with pieces of brass 1/16th brazing rod when it split to help save it. this was when it was .45.

    Today my action now caries a 29 5/8 inch long (Max length between centers, of my older than me, Atlas lathe, I wish I was as flexable as that lathe, just tighten the belt and things move 🙂 ) 58 cal barrel that I fit to it making a new breech plug and all. Tapered pin and all. 1/3 octagon, and rest round and tapered down to parrallel round at the muzzle. I took a piece of rod and welded it to the tenon and extended it shortening the butt screw, still flexed with mild 58 loads. One day I was looking it over and decided to wrap the wrist of the stock with a fine craft store bought brass wire. I had brass pins to solder the wire to for a starting point and as a wrapped I bonded with solder the wire to all ends of the pins ending just covering the last pin. To tension the wire I pulled it threw leather pads in the vice to hold resistance and warp tight, I had my solder station hot and soldered the strands of wire to the ends of every pin, so I was holding tight wire wraps while soldering with the other hand. Fortunately I did this while the but stock was attached to the receiver. I actually shrunk/tightened the wood to the tenon in doing this. It is now very tight and hard to remove with very little flex today. In 58, my H&A in 99, harvested an antelope in WY, and a truck load of deer in NYS, before I discover smokeless muzzleloders. ( Not all in one season mind you.) I have settled on a charge of 65 gr equivalent as being more than adequate with the trusted small moon shaped sphere that is real close to 5/8 oz of lead. never recover one, always complete pass threw .

    I also took a Marlin 12 ga cut off at the chamber barrel ( from Gun Parts corp) and fit to the receiver. 26″ of 12 gauge bore and modern steel, that threaded hard with stamp saying modified choke ( I can not begin to explain my thoughts after firing the 12 ga barrel barrel for the first time with 70 gr equivalent of pyro and then felt wad and then the powder volume equivalent of 7.5s, topped off with over shot wad cut from a paste board milk carton. This was while I was building it, it wasn’t done, but I could taper pin it to the reciever, and shoot it. Yippee, and never did finish it. WOW, No fore end, little barrel weight just the necessities to safely pop a cap. I immediately decided to check the weight of that contraption that just pulled itself from the grasp of my left hand and said hello to my shoulder as nothing like I had anticipated. Take a look at that tiny butt plate on your stock, and you might understand. The scale confirmed that it just barley broke 4 pounds loaded. It has not been shot much.:-)

    They are fun,

    Ken

  • #26560
     oldblinddog 
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    Reg;n5121 wrote:

    Same for 777 ?

    I don’t know. I have no experience with 777.

    One thing about black is that since you are measuring volume, weight doesn’t really matter. So, +/- a few grains won’t hurt anything or make any difference in accuracy. I would just order a 30 gr measure from your favorite supply house and get some Pyrodex or black and commence having fun.

  • #26610
     Reg 
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    Thank you Sir for the information and great story to go with it !!! Will try to post a pic or two a little later.
    The rifle is the Off Hand model, sounds a lot like yours, and is in as new condition. A good friend bought it new back in the mid 60’s, shot it just a tiny bit and put it away, a couple of years ago he was cleaning out the closet and took it to a local gun show where my brother saw it on the bench first and grabbed it up. Terry didn’t shoot it much and offered it to me a few weeks ago for what he had in it. Have shot and used 45 and 50 calibers for fun and hunting but this is the first miniature black I have ever messed with. Did get a mold in so soon as I get a few balls cast up and the darn wind stops blowing for a bit will get out and try it. That long barrel with the tiny hole sure seems to be more than heavy but actually holds well.
    I was thinking of adapting a shotgun barrel but from your experience I think I will try a 20 ga. instead of a 12. I don’t like pain !!
    Again, thanks for your reply.

  • #26612
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    777 is more energetic. . In a TC Hawken 50 80 gr of Goex FFFg is good to go but the 3rd shot with Pyro gives hammer lift and 777 has to be dropped to 70 gr by measure or it gives 1st shot hammer lift . Inthat particular rifle in 1858 Remington revolvers in 44 the difference from Goex to 777 is just over 100 fps with RB .

  • #26613
     Reg 
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    This is interesting. Have never used Triple 7 before so am learning here. Went and got the bottle and it sez. ” Use by equivalent volume to FFFG black powder in replica muzzle loading firearms deemed safe etc. etc. “
    They also emphatically state to NOT exceed their shown loads. Evidently it does seem to be more energetic than regular black.
    I thought I had read somewhere in the dim and distant past that one could take their normal black load and reduce it by 10 percent or something like that.
    Am thinking that perhaps the suggested 30 grain load would still be a good starting place, wish the wind would go down but sounds like another snow might be coming in.
    I wonder if anyone has used this as a black replacement loads in cartridges ?

  • #26621
     VANN 
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    Hodgdon gives load data for Triple 7 on their Website for muzzleloaders and cartridge loading. I’ve used it in muzzleloaders but I’m to cheap to load it in a cartridge. I’ve shot with some cowboy action shooters that where using it and the main difference was less smoke.

  • #26642
     Screwbolts 
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    Reg,

    I have often thought of boring out the remains of the original barrel to a smooth bore 20 gauge. Just tap the pin out of your receiver an grab any shotgun barrel laying around for an idea of what the final project might weigh.

    I will post a photo of my mine soon here, so you can see the wrist support and my sweet old rifle.

    I modified an old Redfield rear peep sight to fit the curved receivers side ( a lesson in patience ) and in WY I had a Lyman 17AHB on front. with the tiny post insert.

  • #26664
     Reg 
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    I changed the sights on mine as well. I didn’t like the rear sight and someone had bubbaed the front sight. Found a old Redfield peep front and some kind of a nicely shaped open for the rear, haven’t shot it yet but they seem to look good.
    Going to let the Grand kids have a go at it this weekend, have a full pound of powder and a large box of balls and while on the Buck skinning subject will show them how to make fire with flint and steel. Bet their Mom will be real proud of me for that one !!!

  • #26673
     Reg 
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    A couple of pics of the old gal. For it’s age, I am surprised at it’s condition. Will find out this weekend how it shoots.

  • #26678
     Screwbolts 
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    That is the very twin to what mine looked like, only mine was a .45. I actualy on the 45 used a remington front sight and my rear looked Identical. with that long sight radius, I enjoyed the accuracy it used to have, My 58 does just as good today. Very nice.

    I would keep charges to a minimum , to keep foaling down so you can pop caps all day long without a cleaning. A box of balls is a good warm up, we always started with a coffee can full, and a gallon bag of pre cut patches. The rifle never got hot just warm from being handed around.

    Have fun,

    Ken

  • #26683
     Reg 
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    Still thinking on that 20 ga. barrel, getting some ideas. Need to check out Numrich’s site and see what is out there.

  • #26718
     Reg 
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    I like that half round, half octagon shape, might lighten up the front of things a bit. Actually, rather than tape how about some raw hide, that and a few brass tacks would add real class I think !!
    The barrel in the white, is that the 12 ga. barrel ?
    Will try the .36 this weekend and am looking for a 20 ga. barrel, looks like it would be a snap to put together. If it had a block silver soldered to the bottom of the barrel as a lug it would be easy to attach a forend.
    Neat old guns like yours are the original 40 dollar rented mule but are some of the most fun guns one could ever own.

  • #26721
     Screwbolts 
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    Yes, the naked barrel, is the 12 ga. there are some captions under the photos. Your thought on silver soldier are right with mine, I even toyed with the thoughts of pouring the fore end to the barrel to add a little ballast.

    The tape, That rifle has been carried so much that the brown on the barrel midway or so above the fore end is worn. That , Thumper , was used regardless of weather conditions for many years. a piece of tape is real handy used over the muzzle to try and keep rain and snow out. we always have a knife, so wrap some tape around it and just peel off a short piece when you need it. Some city folks just don’t understand, LMAO. I hid all the brass rods when I wrapped it in wire. There isn’t enough acreage in the wood on that rifle for a tack for the game animal that old smoke pole has harvested. I couldn’t even begin to calculate the number of woodchucks that thing has made a hole in.

    The front sight is so short because that rifle fits me to the point and is so natural to aim, If I see something threw that rear aperture, the front sight just is reference. It is just there to show you where a hole will develop if you allow the hammer to raise.

    Reg, it’s OKay, I didn’t find any offense on adding class to it. some of us, just aint got no class, but we is happy. LMAO again.

    Ken

  • #26722
     Screwbolts 
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    Looking the photos over is bringing back lots of memories, notice the plate on the side of the rear sight. That has my name on it all over, that isn’t original, the 2 front screws held a tiny plate that allowed the post to rock some. It had multiple reference marks and deluxe stuff, but It didn’t completely cover and support the post. This was some kind of a target sight. I wanted a tough hunting sight. I cut that plate out and drilled the hole to reference the marks and drilled and taped the sight for the rear most screw. That is one of those situations that 1 nail will hold it, 2 makes sure, but use 4, then you can sleep at night.

    Ken

  • #26792
     Reg 
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    I like that rear sight, might have to go to something like that myself as the open rear sight is getting a bit fuzzy to see. I couldn’t imagine why.

    Shot the .36 all of Saturday morning and what a hoot !!! Even let the grandkids get involved, little Justin wants one just like that when he grows up or would be just as happy to keep Grandads right now !! Wound up using using a measure that held 27 /28 gn. vol. of 777. Want to put it on a cronograph as it had a nice sharp crack and seemed very fast to the target. Only shot at about 50 yards but grouping was actually much better than I thought. Water clean up did the trick.
    Wish wabbit season was still going, this thing would be fun.
    Looking around right now for a suitable 20 ga. barrel to fit up to the action. I like that taper pin takedown, will be very simple to fit up to. Get all the bugs worked

    out of it and hope to try it out on doves this fall.

    I like the tape business around the barrel at the ferral , handy place to just leave it me thinks. I too put tape over the end of all barrels when we are out hunting. Will have to take a picture of a barrel I have down stairs that I took off a Savage 110 a few years back. If he would have had a bit of tape over the end of the barrel it wouldn’t have gone BLAMMY when it did. Most spectacular for sure.

  • #26826
     Screwbolts 
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    Looks like a fun time was had by all. The giggle factor is always important.

    Never popped a cap on 777, but I am sure it is good stuff.

    One Day a new UPS driver was making a delivery to my home, this was years ago. I had just started a fire in the burn barrel / incinerator, I thought this could be interesting when he drove in as I returned to my home. I had finally decided to dispose of the last 1/4 to 1/3 pound of Clean Shot/american pioner, in its original container in that barrel. As we stood there it went, WWHHOOOSSSSHHH, he jumped as he saw a large mushroom shaped cloud rising from the barrel. What was that? was his words, when I stopped laughing, I splained it was a black powder substitute that I disliked to the point that I wouldn’t even give it to someone I didn’t like. It was gifted to me and I was done, I thought that was a fitting end. The giggle factor was very high.

    Ken

  • #26828
     Reg 
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    I think I might have told him it was a few chillie peppers left over from last night supper then ask him if he wanted to take a few home !!!!

    :):):)

  • #27782
     Reg 
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    Quick update.
    This is a very busy time of year and I seldom have time to play with ideas but did manage to find and fit a 20 ga. barrel to the H&A, it is a story in itself and will write it up late when I have time. Anyway, Screwbolts was more than right !!! My action must be one of the later ones that was made from tubing as by the time I got the barrel fitted I was shocked to actually see how light the gun was. Need to weigh it but it gives a new meaning to the word featherweight.
    Tested it out with a load of 50 gn. 777 and 1 oz. shot and HOLY SMOKES— does that puppy ever kick. I have fired 458 Winchesters that didn,t hurt that much.
    Before dove season will try to lighten the load, make a very heavy forend and put on a slip on recoil pad. More later.

  • #27847
     Reg 
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    Update to the update.

    Dropped charge back to 40 gn. 777 and 7/8 oz. #8 shot and put on a rubber slip on recoil pad.
    Wha la !! Recoil you can handle and shoots a nice pattern out to 30 yards.
    This is starting to be fun.

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