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    • #33444
      Goodsteel
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      Several things have happened this past month really have me thinking about American gun culture and how we have lost our way, and sold our birthright for a bowl of soup.

      1. I was having a brew with a buddy at local place and he mentioned to me that a mutual friend had asked to borrow $100 because he was out of work and down on his luck. Just week or so later, the same fellow called and said he found a smokin deal on an old pistol and wondered if he should spring for it.

      2. A friend of mine got bit by the suppressor bug hard, and started filling out paper work and buying suppressors to the tune of about 1-2 per month. I mentioned to him that he should really think about bringing all his guns to the shop two by two, and let me dress the threads perfectly square to prevent baffle strikes and preserve precision because the gun manufacturers never intended the threads to be used for a can. He told me he could not afford to have me clean up all those threads………but several rifles quit printing the way he was used to and one day he got a real bad baffle strike. Then I couldn’t beat him away with a 2X4.

      3. One of my clients told me he had found something amazing. A vintage custom rifle. He had payed only $1500 and it was…..unique. When he showed it to me, I slipped from the gunsock the finest rifle I have personally touched in my life. I immediately plugged in my microscope and started looking at the checkering. Perfect. I found one tiny overrun where the craftsman’s cut had merely pricked the edge of the border. The four-de-lis were executed with almost ethereal precision. The metal work was completely rust blued with such perfect quality, it was hard to believe it was actually real. The rifle was for all intent’s and purposes, a standard that every custom gunsmith would like to be able to accomplish some day.
      A little research into the history that came with the rifle showed that it had been commissioned in 1967 for the princely sum of $850. A mental calculation showed that to be the equivalent of just over $6500 in today’s money. Caliber? 30-06.
      Today it’s hard to find someone who is willing to spend so well on quality work, and sadly, it’s even harder to find a craftsman who is able to pull it off. Coincidence? No I don’t think so.

      4. Several conversations I have heard concerning the price of 22LR, clearly shows that gun owners think that it’s being sold for more money than it ever has been, which, frankly is totally false. The same concept goes for the cost of a fine firearm of any manufacture or style. Inflation is reckoned in consideration of every product we buy, even golf clubs, but bring up firearms and it’s suddenly an invalid consideration, when actually, firearms increase in expense even more so than normal products due to ever tightening regulations and expenses levied against every aspect of our sport.

      5. An old man who I was fortunate to be able to spend a large amount of time with several years ago, showed me his great grandfather’s Parker Bros. SXS shotgun. He made mention of the fact that it was his grandfather’s only firearm, and that it had been very costly to buy at $45. After doing some checking, we discovered that this was the equivalent of almost $1000 value. The old farmer used that shotgun to take everything from squirrel to deer till he was too feeble to shoot anymore. That’s a different mentality than you find with your average late 20 year old gun owner nowadays. Isn’t it.

      6. A guy who has about 12 rifles of one kind or another that he really isn’t all that pleased with, tells me he’d really like to have one of my custom rifles, but he just can’t afford it.

      Many times I discuss rifle builds with people and they are more interested in spending their money on the overall look of the rifle than on the things that really make a difference on paper (like the barrel and the choice of optics). They just want another rifle in the stable in some weird caliber, or some new configuration, or what have you. Of course there’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s very easy to predict what’s going to happen when they go to really shooting this thing if they cut cost on the barrel and optics, and you have to wonder why they are looking at something new in the first place when they have a whole stable of rifles in perfectly capable calibers already. Usually, its because they never got attached to those other rifles because none of them really shot all that well. True, I do occasionally meet someone who has many very very fine rifles, any of which are put to good use when this fellow tucks in behind them. This is far and away the exception rather than the rule though.

      I used to be the king of the uber sweet gun deals myself, but I also wanted that “one rifle” that was perfect for every occasion. I was plagued with janky guns that should have shot well, but just didn’t. I wanted to make cloverleaf groups at 100 yards, nice tight clusters at 200 and I wanted to be able to shoot golf balls at 300 10 for 10.
      I had only two firearms that I really thought were exceptional and they were both handguns that I got for much less than I should have for one reason or another. They were an IAI Hardballer in 45ACP, and a Smith and Wesson Model 19 in 357 Magnum. I have out-shot men with rifles using those handguns at 50 yards before. I was quite the tyrannosaur with those two pistols and they made me very happy, but I’m just not a pistol guy. I am and have always been a rifleman.
      So you can appreciate my elation when the “right deal” came along and I was able to purchase a Model 70 Winchester in 30-06 for low money. I’ll never forget the feeling of walking out of the pawnshop with that rifle in my grasp. I just knew that wonderful precision was in my very near future. I remember buying a new box of 175 grain Sierra Match King bullets and a pound of IMR 4831 powder. I loaded the bullets about .005 off the lands and headed to the range with my Winchester.
      To date, and excluding several mil-surps with rusted out bores, that was the most inaccurate bolt action rifle I’ve ever pulled the trigger on. After handloading for it, and running 300 rounds through it, the best group I had produced was 4″. I couldn’t tell if I was just a bad shot, or if I was a horrible reloader, or if something was wrong with the rifle, so I sold it and went back to my pistols. However, the bug just wouldn’t leave me. I had to have a rifle, and I had to have one that was a guaranteed shooter in order to learn the finer points of high powered riflemanship. I got some money together and did some research and decided I REALLY wanted a Sako in 30-06, but that was $1200 at the time, and would take more than a year to save up for. I had been crawling over reviews and reading between the lines, and I knew that the thing I really wanted was that Sako barrel. That was the key to my success. I found out that the Tikka T3 Hunter was a subsidiary of Sako, and was fitted with the same diamond lapped Finnish barrels. I found this rifle at a gunshop, and bought it. Then I went to the scope rack and selected a Bushnell Elite 3200. Then I purchased some Millet mounts and rings and three boxes of ammunition from different manufacturers, all 175-180 grains. I went to the range with the new rifle and about 1/10th the confidence that I had when I had made the same walk a couple years previous with the Winchester.
      My first groups from that rifle were MOA. I tried another box of ammo, and the groups opened slightly. The third box of ammo was some cheap stuff that was made in Africa with big soft noses that had been peened into a mushroom shape from bouncing against the plastic container. I bought them because they were cheap, and looked like fun plinking fodder. To my utter amazement, I produced my first 1/2MOA group with that ammunition. Seems I was not as bad a shot as I had thought!
      Also, i couldn’t help noticing that I could have had this rifle much sooner had I taken all the money I blew on cheap junk that made me angry and frustrated and pointed it towards one expensive rifle.
      Well time does march on, and I began building my own rifles and catching that sweet spot, and getting better and better at it, but the truth is, I don’t need a custom rifle to outshoot 90% of the gun owners in America. All I need is a good quality rifle with good quality optics, and those too things cost a lot, and you have to wade through piles of cheap junk to get to them.

      At this point, I have come to several conclusions about rifle ownership and I believe these things are true whether or not anyone agrees with me.

      1. There is no such thing as “the one rifle”.
      Just like there is no such thing as “one knife” that will allow you to pitch everything in your kitchen because that which resides in your pocket is the end all be all. I think that for each application a man can have one rifle that represents his will on the targets with remarkable clarity.
      I think for hunting, a man needs a 22LR, two midrange rifles (one that bends toward precision, and another that bends toward raw power), and a long range rifle. Additional rifles will be needed for certain sports, or situations, but for me, this is the baseline. Each rifle in this lineup is selected for quality above all else. They are my closest and most dependable firearms. Things may change, but so far those rifles are:
      Remington 550 Speedmaster
      Springfield M1A Scout
      Browning 1886 45-70
      The slot for the long range rifle has recently been emptied by a client who wanted my rifle and made me an offer I couldn’t refuse, but it was a custom MBT Remington 700 in 300 WIn Mag.This doesn’t really bother me much because there are very few places I would actually need such a rifle. Practically none in point of fact.

      2. You get what you pay for.
      This is such a hard concept for modern Americans to grasp, but we remain frustrated surrounded by cheap junk, be it our cars, shoes, knives, boots, or……..our rifles and sporting goods. As was demonstrated in my opening comments, there was a time in this country when a man would base his choices on quality alone. If he did not have the money to purchase the item he deemed acceptable in the quality dept., he would simply save till he did have it, then make his purchase. All that has changed. It seems that everyone around me has cost as a first priority with quality coming in dead last waaaaaaayyyyy down the list. It’s a Saturday night special mentality. It’s cheap enough to buy with what’s in my wallet (God forbid I should wait till I can treat myself to the best) and it looks shiny, so that’s the item for me!!!! What a bargain!!!!!
      Lets just stop and take a look around for a minute. IS it really such a bargain? I think if we were all honest, we would all agree that we really wanted the best quality, but we took one look at the price tag and decided it’s never going to happen. Just too expensive (even if it’s only $100 more than the cheapest POS we can lay our hands on). If you want to shoot tight groups, this has to change. Quality must become your first love, regardless of the price tag. If you simply cannot afford it, then sell off some junk and put your dollar where it will do the most good.

      There seem to be no shortage of people around me who spend their money as fast as they get it, but by and large waste it on flu flu garbage that doesn’t get them where they are going because they have no patience, no discipline, no focus, and no determination. They are like squirrels running after whichever nut falls from the tree next, burning a ton of time and energy grabbing whatever is shiny and CHEAP. I know some of these guys well. They like the idea of quality, but its QUANTITY that really drives their decisions. The American gun market is set up to take advantage of this. I could open a gunshop and sell Ruger, Montanna, and custom Remington and offer accessories made by Burris, nightforce, AI, Badger, and Leupold. I would go broke in a year. No one sees any value in these fine things. Meanwhile, I could open the same store and offer Savage axis, Mossberge, S&W AR-15s and Ruger American rifles along with accessories made in China out of rolled aluminum and stamped sheet metal and I’d probably make a very nice profit indeed.
      This infatuation we have with cheap junk simply must stop. We are getting exactly what we are demanding.
      When was the last time you said “look bub. If it isn’t made in America out of solid steel then I don’t want it.” That didn’t used to be very uncommon, but these days, it’s never heard.

      Lets get back to buying products that we can be proud of and make quality king again. I miss the Savage 99’s, the American made Model 70’s, the JM Marlins, the Ruger 44 deerfield, the American made Redfield accutrac (and Redfield rings), the steel El Paso Weavers………I could go on and on. We can gripe till the cows come home that things like this are not available anymore, but when it comes right down to it, we were the ones that drove these products away. We do not demand quality first, so quality is hard to come by.

      Just a few thoughts that have been rolling through my head…….

    • #33448
      uber7mm
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      Tim, I agree with you. I’m a firm believer in purchasing quality with cash in hand. If I can’t afford something, then I’m going to wait and save some more. Today’s US society has been spoon fed that all of their desires can & should be immediately gratified. No wonder the shiny cheap stuff sells.

      BTW: The chain retail stores have their own credit cards with instance approval, leading their unsuspecting customer-victim into debt. Better read the fine print. Kinda like the serpent’s lie in the garden.

    • #33451
      jwt
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      A person should always strive for tools of the highest quality. You can never do your best work with a substandard tool.

    • #33452
      kens
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      BassPro shops is another one. I hate to buy from BassPro. Most of what they got is Tshirts and sunglasses, then if you get into guns & fishing, their fishing rods fall apart, their reels rust up, and so on. Unless they got a good price on ammo, they don’t have anything for me.

      And when you talk about the guy with the cheap guns and few good ones, go easy on me – I resemble that remark !!!:rolleyes:

    • #33453
      Bodean98
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      I will usually purchase the best quality that I can afford. That said I sometimes buy the cheap shiny stuff to remind myself why I need to wait for the money to get the good stuff!!!
      I too have a large selection of firearms. Mostly Mauser bolt rifles in various calibers and configurations. They have all been custom built by myself and I can attest that none of them was cheap. The parts alone were a substantial outlay. If the labor hours were counted towards the value they would all be $10,000 or more in cost. I seem to have “Champagne taste on a beer budget”! I learned to customize these rifles on my own and learned a lot on how this work was accomplished. To me the education was well worth the cost. In the end it was a means to acquire what I desired at a price I could live with.

    • #33454
      Butch Wax
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      I’m an old man. Was a peace officer for decades and a gunsmith for many years as well, mainly handguns due to my primary profession. As a class 1 dealer too, I bought and sold guns with fellow cops being my main customers. In the 80’s, the first “1911 craze” hit and I couldn’t build hot rodded .45ACP pistols fast enough. And I was also a class 6 ammo mfg.. I was loading constantly. And almost every customer I had was cheap. I mean sure, they were mostly brother officers and they wanted what’s in the latest gun magazines but didn’t want to pay for it.

      I witnessed many buy cheap imports and knock offs and when these junk pistols crapped out on em, they’d be at my shop whining about their cheap guns wanting me to perform a miracle and turn them into Colts, Springfield Armory, H-K, Walther, and such. When I’d tell them they brought it all on themselves by being cheap and buying junk it was suddenly my fault the cheap guns that I DIDN’T sell them failed!

      Flash to today. Long retired from cop work and gunsmith business living in the woods with my own range. Neighbors across the road visit and shoot now and then. One has some quality weapons given by his father but poorly maintained and utterly filthy. The other, his brother-in-law, cares for his gear, but is CHEAP!!! He wanted a .30’06 like mine. He bought a low end Mossberg from a pawn shop as it was cheap. He did the same buying a youth rifle in .30-30 because it was marked down and cheap. He’s 6’2″ and well over 300 pounds. That kid’s gun fits him like a Daisy Red Rider fits me! Yet he was astounded that he couldn’t hit anything with either gun and they’re uncomfortable to shoot because of poor fitting stocks and such. And he’s the same with everything he has. He’s got 9 guitars and 5 amplifiers. All cheap. They play awful and he wonders why my American made Gibson plays and sounds amazingly well. Sure I saved up for it and it’s not cheap. Hummmm, there’s a pattern here as Tim pointed out.

      We’ve become a nation of cheapskates demanding things instantly (that’s the internet causing that) and buying crap from China simply because it’s cheap and available. God forbid you have to save up for an American made item of quality that’s gonna cost more than a potmetal popper! I’ve been on this planet for 7 decades and have witnessed the decline of our nation’s economic strength, national pride, unity, and international status and might. To see this is just beyond belief sometimes but we’ve become a nation of crybabies wanting everything right now and cheap! Despicable.

      Ok, off my soapbox.

    • #33455
      Waksupi
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      I think it boils down to, a guy has to pee on the electric fence himself, rather than believe it when someone tells him it’s not a good idea.

    • #33456
      GhostHawk
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      I probably have too many guns, but you don’t hear me or anyone around me complaining.

      I got into the rifle game some 4 years back when I had a pretty nice windfall hit my account. My parents sold their lake cabin of 24 years. In that time it tripled in value.
      They decided they did not need more money in the bank. So they split it 4 ways and send us four children 32,000 worth of early inheritance.

      Now I invested a good chunk of that. Some of it was invested in us, a really good bed for my wife. A basement full of sugar, salt, rice, beans, and other food that keeps well.

      And I bought a few guns.

      After the pair of Mosin’s and the Yugo SKS I got bit by the single shot bug. Started with a .223 H&R, was able by the skin of my teeth and a little help from a friend to get a .357 mag and a 7.62×39 barrel fitted for it. That .357 btw has put 3 into one small hole at 50 yards and would do the same at 100 If I can do my part. So once I had the load development done and it was stacking them up I put it away and moved on. The 7.62×39 shoots ok, but I have yet to find what it really wants. What I do know is that with 4.6 grains of Red Dot and a .314 90 grain TC Lee bullet there is no squirrel or rabbit safe from it out past 50 yards. It just does not quite stack them, yet.

      I bought 8 months after H&R closed shop a .444 marlin complete rifle with camo composite stock for 210$. A steal in my opinon. And it too will stack boolits on top of each other on any day I am capable of doing my part. And on a whim I bought a .300BO comeplete for 227$. I thought I would sit on it for a year or 2 and sell it for 500 and double my money. Laugh, I could do it, yes I could. But I won’t.

      I know many here will deride me for it but I found that I truly enjoy shooting a Hipoint Carbine, I have one in 9mm, another in .40sw, and I am thinking hard about a .45acp.

      I bought a few pistols. A SA 1911 mid 90’s era for my father in law who was in Korea up in the Chosen Res battle. He just wanted to hold it. I think it was the key for him to unlock a bunch of good old memory’s.

      My wife and I each have a Ruger Mk III 22/45 with a truglo red dot on top. Both will put 10 rounds inside a pop bottle cap at 20 feet. This is my favorite pistol to shoot.
      Recoil really does not bother me in pistol with the moderate calibers. Muzzle blast screws me up, throws off my aim and rattles my cage.

      I just bought a 300$ airgun, a Hatsan 135 QE Vortex in .22. I also bought 4000 pellets at 1.89 cents each. Will do up to 1050 fps with light pellets. Probably looking at 850 to 900 fps with my 14.3 grain, around 24-26 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. It is a beast, weighs 9 lbs without a scope. Turkish walnut stock. A bit noisier than my Sheridan Blue streak, but a bit faster and with more power as well. I think my Ruger 10/22 is retired.

      Come May I have every intention of buying one of the new Henry single shots in .44 mag. Yes I know, I already have a .444 which does everything a .44 mag can do and more.But I wants it. Sometime after that I am thinking about a lever gun in .45lc. And I have a Win 94 WWII era that needs a rebore, .35-30-30 maybe.

      I am retired, for the last year all expenses have come out of my monthly social security check which is a whopping 570$.. And I have some expenses which come out first.

      But I am left with a little over 400$ a month which is mine to do with as I see fit.

      Mostly I see fit to stack up piles of Red Dot, Lead, Primers, Brass, guns which are fun to shoot, guns which shoot good, and guns which may be neither, but which for some reason or another I enjoy.

      No complaints here, not asking anyone for anything. Just a little ol dragon sitting on his hoard with a smile on his face.

      Too many guns, not enough money. But hey, its fun.

    • #33458
      Goodsteel
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      Obviously, you know where I’m coming from with this. Drives me nuts how rare it is for someone to respect themselves enough to treat themselves to the best.
      I’ve experienced the same thing with the boomerang junk. I give people recommendations which they promptly ignore, then they come crying to me that the rifle doesn’t shoot like they wanted. My sympathy waxes thin……..

    • #33460
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      Guilty ……… Sort of .

      It has been a long curve for me .
      I do appreciate the top shelf quality ,so many things that we use today just don’t make the cut of being worth buying the top shelf …….. Too many times a product line is sold with a name and/or a legacy and it it sold as such . When someone says Cadillac I immediately think of the plush Corrinthian leather ,doors that close solid on a Fischer body and a car that swallows speed humps and pot holes like marble induced rings on flat water in a 12′ skiff . A Suburban with limo tint is a long ways from the road car I had in mind .
      I work construction for a while and was ridiculed for buying the cheap contractor packs of carbide tipped skill saw blades . My argument was that I could 2 for what the lead guy paid for 1 and make 2/3 as many cuts per change as he did . Which made the 4-5th blades free. Thus the beginning of my undoing .
      Some things we can skimp on some we can’t or simply won’t . I have 1 more pair of Red Wings coming from my employer and I will shop the top shelf for a US tag but too many of their boots come from the Ning Po leather works now to be certain .

      I have a couple of really good rifles , credit where it is due . None of them originated by means of the top shelf for certain. I have a couple of rifles that just happened to be really good rifles and I have a couple that with the correct load are really good . I have 1 that is really good and I haven’t got a clue why .
      I also have a couple that should be really good that like GS model 70 are huge let downs .

      I have another fault .
      Who doesn’t breathe a little deeper when they see that double set , flor de lis scrolled , banner 98 with the flip up safari sights and the real ivory bead and all of that inlay around and in the single point check ,that ebony tip and cap . The action is like greased glass and the set you more feel than hear ……..I drool just thinking of it the purest of art and you know that it will just meld into your hole like warm butter on hot toast . …….. In the real world I’d rather have the rifle that I can count on to put 3 in 2″ at 100 after I crawl 200 yds up a muddy blow sand wash 18″ deep and full of DG softball sized rocks …… Not the best place for the drool factor 275 Rigby by Rigby …….
      Knowing that I settle . As a result I drive an Expedition not a Navagator , I buy a base to build on and I have very expensive tastes but know that 1 fall in the mud will spoil the Craftsman’s pride in showmanship while the true value is at the core not in the skin .

    • #33461
      Goodsteel
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      Here’s my midrange 45-70 hunting rifle.

      I can assure you that gold inlay and high checkering holds up just fine in the rain and elements. I used it on this hunt to bag six deer, and it took care of business just fine, and I enjoyed looking at it while I waited in the tree. Nice firearms are like well behaved children. Sure, you didn’t have to work so hard to make them mind, (a kid is a kid after all) but when they please you in public, it makes you so very proud.

    • #33464
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      Every ding is a memory ……… I’d rather not remember the dragon fly above creasing my eyebrow when I slid under the truck in the mud . 🙂

      I freely admit that the aesthetic beauty marks would be wasted on me, kind of like basing a rock crawler on an Escalade , King Ranch or Eddie Bower edition truck .

    • #33476
      Wright Arms
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      I have been guilty of purchasing ‘cheap’ rifles and then resenting the results on range. But I would not trade the experience for any other. I have learned a few things along the way. As I am certain most of us have.

      Mostly I have learned that if I am comfortable with the rifle and appreciate the appearance and function of the action, then I am willing to invest in improving the accuracy of the rifle. But if it feels awkward or the action cycles as if it was half full of rubber cement, then I can’t send it down the road fast enough.

      Most of the rifles I own shoot better than necessary to perform a useful purpose. The one that currently does not is destined for another owner. Because I have determined it is not worth investing in. But talking about sub-MOA groups certainly provides plenty of fodder for internet boards.

    • #33488
      Sgt. Mike
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      Ok since we are suspender snapping …….I’ll play along..
      looking at just scopes .. .. Why? because rule of thumb is buy equal or twice the quality or cost of Rifle.
      Vortex claims on its official website that all their products are designed, engineered, pre-inspected, and serviced in-house here in the USA. But wait,
      Razor HD scopes are manufactured in Japan
      Vipers are made in Philippines
      Diamondbacks are made in Philippines made as well
      Crossfire scopes are produced in China

      Leupold ….
      assembled in the USA period regardless of type. Lens do not come from America, here is their statement on the lenses, We buy our lenses, which are designed entirely by Leupold engineers, from both domestic and international sources. We would like to buy all our lenses in the United States, but there is not currently a lens manufacturer who can meet our quality standards in the volume we require but must meet the requirement set forth by Leupold. but every other part of the scope is made in USA, those few lines that the erector is not US made are marked assembled in USA.

      Redfield bought by Leupold and Like the Leupold USA except for one line and that is the Revenge. All Revolution branded Redfield are US made under the same guidance as Leupold.

      Ziess oooh that great German quality optic, but a close inspection of the product line up revels that 50% of the line up is China.

      Weaver oh yes that great American company sorry Charlie they have not made a American Scope since early 1980s.

      40/44 series made in Philippines (either Philippine ScopPro or Kenko plant per the rumor mill)

      The Weaver Classics, Grand Slam, Rimfire , T-series,Super Slam, Tactical series – Japan ( rumor says LOW aka Light Optical Works)

      Metopta U.S.A is a US manufactured Brand, although it is a Czechoslovakian company that expanded to the US in 2005. But the saving grace is all the US offered are assembled here in the US.

      Trijicon is a US manufactured Brand

      U.S. Optics is a US assembled Brand, meaning 51% or greater of the parts and labor are sourced from the USA. However, FTC guidelines prevent US Optics from being able to say their scopes are “Made In The USA,” because some components such as electronics and some of the glass come from foreign suppliers. However, all metal parts are turned by their own shop and local vendors in Southern California. The anodizing is done locally as well. All basic and skilled labor is performed in US.

      So let’s recap Leupold, Redfield, U.S. Optics, Trijicon, Metopta, and the Nightforce B.E.A.S.T ( only the B.E.A.S.T, all others in the lineup Japan) are the only currently American made/assembled.

      To my knowledge not a single US made scope manufacturer buys all their lenses here in the US, simply because of quality and availability. Hence that ship had sailed under Bill Clinton’s era thanks to NAFTA years ago. But what about Made in USA ? The Buy American Act — Requires that a product be manufactured in the U.S. of more than 50 percent U.S. parts to be considered Made in USA for government procurement purposes. For more information, review the Buy American Act at 41 U.S.C. §§ 10a-10c, the Federal Acquisition Regulations at 48 C.F.R. Part 25, and the Trade Agreements Act at 19 U.S.C. §§ 2501-2582.

      What’s on your Rifle??

    • #33492
      Izzyjoe
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      Speaking of scopes, I’ve been buying Redfield revolutions, cause they are a good bang for the buck! I think everyone is guilty of being a little cheap at times, and when I say cheap I mean thrifty, because you have to watch you’re funds, or you will have a big problem! I’ve also bought a few rifles, and built some that wouldn’t shoot for nothing, and then you buy one of those cheap plastic stock rifles and it shoots like a house a fire. Thing is nowadays there making better cheap rifles, and shotguns. But I for one will not buy one made over seas, it just seems wrong to me!

    • #33494
      lar45
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      I am guilty of having way too many firearms. I started off young buying what I could afford and kind of fell in love with “sporterized” Mausers. They range from just a useful hunting tool or loaner rifle to OMG is that gorgeous. The Optics is where I fall short most of the time. I have Leopold and Nikons on a few choice rifles, but most of the others are imported.
      I have been thinking of loading up a bunch of my earlier rifles and heading to a gun show and see if I could trade up into something nicer. I’ll setup a private sale table and see if I get any takers.

    • #33495
      Sgt. Mike
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      Izzyjoe;n14229 wrote: Speaking of scopes, I’ve been buying Redfield revolutions, cause they are a good bang for the buck! I think everyone is guilty of being a little cheap at times, and when I say cheap I mean thrifty, because you have to watch you’re funds, or you will have a big problem! I’ve also bought a few rifles, and built some that wouldn’t shoot for nothing, and then you buy one of those cheap plastic stock rifles and it shoots like a house a fire. Thing is nowadays there making better cheap rifles, and shotguns. But I for one will not buy one made over seas, it just seems wrong to me!

      I have one of the Redfield revolution TAC really have not ran it through any real testing, but so far it seems to be a good entry level tactical scope.

      I would like for Leupold / Redfield to offer that in a fixed 12 or maybe 20 power

    • #33501
      Goodsteel
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      Sometimes “Made in the USA” is not an option. Especially after decades of undiscriminating American shooters being willing to settle for whatever they can get for what’s in their wallet. That will not change till we do.
      As it is, we should at least insist on quality. That alone will make our needle point north again.

      Why is it that if I started a lens grinding/scope making company here I would go out of business? (and with the last name “Malcolm” don’t think it hadn’t crossed my mind!)
      Because most shooters wouldn’t see any value in crystal clear, US made optics, therefore the scope manufacturers would not give me a contract. It’s as simple as that. We are getting hit by our own boomerang.

    • #33513
      Anonymous
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      My Opinion is People are reading Gun articles (paper or Internet) and seeing this person used X and Y product to win WW long-range compition and everyone wants to buy the same
      Your rifles Are very good (If I could hold one in my hands and shoot it I would say they are EXCELLENT)

      If you built a rifle and you also built a Scope and with it you won the best of the best Long range shooting compition, People would be throwing there $$ at you Build one for me and you would have a very long waiting list.

    • #33525
      Harter
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      Market disparity …
      ​​​​​​
      i bought a Tasco pronghorn 3-9×40 22 yr , I paid $89 for it …….A month later it dropped to $69 . I mounted set it up for my zero . I fired hundreds of rounds of 06′ in full tilt M2 on up to some full tilt 200s . Then I got sucked into the scope adjust repeatably thing. I took my best load , 12 right 5 shots , 12 up 5 shots , 24 left 5 shots , 24 down 5 shots , 12 right 5 , 12 up 5 shots and right back 3″ high at 100. The full field only fuzzes a little at 9x and only if you really look for it at the edges . It gives up a little in the dark woods but the gold tone reticle shows up fine at 1 half hour before sunrise . I use it as basically a fixed 6x , I mean I haven’t touched anything in 10-12 years . I bought another for a 257 last yr at $59 and so far it has performed as an equal to the older scope .

      For the above raises questions .
      How does a manufacturer build a near identical product for 40 yrs with the price in continuing decline ?
      How can it be shipped in mass 8,000 miles wet and dry and 2,000 more to a user and cost 1/6th of a , mechanically speaking, lesser product ?
      Last why can’t an American made or at least assembled fixed 6 duplex scope be sold for less than $175 instead of just over $350 ?

      I know lens grinding can’t be that costly or my blended bifocals would be much more expensive . Coatings cost too , but virtually every lens has some sort of coatings now . How much R&D can be involved in fixed power etched reticle scope . Having been built on 5 continents for at least 75 yr you’d think it would be down pat .
      You can have for $600-1200 for your choice of fixed , variable , lighted , lasered , UV ,IR , even with video and 17 different reticles or a model that even reduces ranging skills to nil. So what to put on the $200 second hand 110E 308 that shoots everything under 175 grains into 2″ or less within 3″ of POA at 100 with a $20 yard sale Bushnell sportview on it . If a 1968 Weaver 4X does everything needed including hold zero for your 63′ M70 why spend 2k on a Ziess , because it’s clearer , it gives you another 15 minutes , it has 1/8 MOA clicks and 140 MOA elevation ? That’ll be handy for 200 yd elk with that 06′ ,270 or Whelen .
      I definitely see the value if you’re shooting 1000 yd for money even more so for your life . A confidence edge in the field ……..well okay if you need that .

      Maybe I do need Sinclair dies , Vickerman seaters , a Forster CoAx to go with a $5000 rifle and $2000 in glass …..

    • #33535
      Sgt. Mike
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      JHSFun;n14251 wrote: My Opinion is People are reading Gun articles (paper or Internet) and seeing this person used X and Y product to win WW long-range compition and everyone wants to buy the same
      Your rifles Are very good (If I could hold one in my hands and shoot it I would say they are EXCELLENT)……….

      I would agree with you on both points

    • #33629
      dragon813gt
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      I could sell almost every gun in my safe and not miss them. But I hold onto them as sort of an investment. Guns, at least the ones I collect, aren’t a depreciating asset. This is assuming I didn’t have it rebored and then send it to Tim to be worked over. I have a habit of killing the value of some of my guns. But they are mine and I will do w/ them what I want.

      What I will not do, and you won’t be able to convince me, is spend ridiculous sums of money on a scope. The ranges that I hunt at don’t require one to begin w/. I’m not going to spend a thousand dollars on one. The ones I do have are perfectly serviceable for the shooting I do. I completely understand why high end scopes cost what they do. I’m not shooting at extreme ranges so it would be money wasted.

    • #33632
      GhostHawk
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      Dragon I look at 500$ scopes and 700$ Red Dots and laugh. Maybe the Government can afford to pay those prices. I won’t, ever.

      Most of my rifles wear Simmons glass, nothing over 70$, all perfectly functional.

      Some folks have too much money and no idea what to do with it.

    • #33633
      dragon813gt
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      GhostHawk;n14413 wrote: Dragon I look at 500$ scopes and 700$ Red Dots and laugh. Maybe the Government can afford to pay those prices. I won’t, ever.

      Most of my rifles wear Simmons glass, nothing over 70$, all perfectly functional.

      Some folks have too much money and no idea what to do with it.

      Every scope I own is a Nikon. Coincidentally every camera lens my father and I own are Nikon. My digital SLR is a Nikon. I guess you can call me brand loyal. I look at it as I get the most scope for my money at the price I’m willing to pay. For hunting and informal target practice the scopes work for me. If I started shooting competively I’d likely change my position if a more expensive scope offered me an advantage. But all I care about is being able to put a shot where it matters at one hundred yards are less. Our rifle season is only two weeks long so I spent most of my time hunting w/ a crossbow. It to wears a Nikon scope.

    • #33635
      GhostHawk
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      IMO nothing wrong with being brand loyal if it works for you. When it quits working for you is the time to rethink.
      In your case I suspect that you will use Nikon’s for a long long time. I have a Nikon camera myself. 🙂

    • #33638
      Goodsteel
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      Most do not shoot precisely enough on a regular basis to tell when a scope is acting up. However, if your’e like me, and you start wringing your hands and wondering if its time to fall on your sword if a custom rifle doesn’t shoot ten into less than .75 inches predictably, it only takes a couple scopes turning a 1/2MOA rifle into a 1.25″ rifle to make you send a few of them in a sweeping arch, end over end into the trash can.
      The wrong scope can add an inch to your groups and most folks would never catch it.

    • #33641
      dragon813gt
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      Tim, I completely understand that point. In your case I see every advantage to one. For most people it doesn’t. They’d be better served by spending that money on ammo and practicing. Then when they’re more proficient they can buy high quality glass 😉

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