This topic contains 42 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  popper 6 months ago.

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  • #23715
     Goodsteel 
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    This is needed.

    Here’s the “recommended data”:
    Measured groups of ten shots (you get one flier) and a PICTURE of the group.
    Load data and firearm particulars.
    Measured range to the target (100 yards is preferred for rifles, 25 yards for pistols).
    No cropping, No photoshop, No data pasted over holes in the target, No measuring of “clusters”.
    We don’t care what the bullets look like (there’s other threads/forums for that). What we are after here is a real demonstration of accuracy on paper (rocks don’t count).

    This kind of data will do more for bringing PC into the mainstream than anything IMHO, and what’s even better is that more people will learn what the tricks are for pushing PC to low rifle speeds perhaps as fast as 2400FPS.
    That said, any group is acceptable here. This is an attempt to learn and demonstrate reality. Not a contest (except with yourself).
    What say you?​

  • #23728
     Newt 
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    Good idea. I’d post some pictures of mine, but they are all 5 shot groups right now. Maybe have some over the weekend to share.

  • #23748
     Smoke4320 
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    when i get thru business tax filings and it warms up a little will see what we can add to the mix

    45-70, 300 Blackout, 308, 358 win should be a good start

  • #23752
     chutesnreloads 
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    Been waiting for a thread like this with this kind of criterea for a while.Likewise only have pics of 5 shot groups at present.This should become an interesting thread.Thanks Tim

  • #23979
     Dick 
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    Tim, Is this just for rifles? Or do you want pistol stuff as well? Most of my pistol groups are with one full load for the gun IE: 1911 gets 7 shots, Glock gets 13 shots, revolver gets 6 shots per target, but I have a bunch of targets from each gun for an aggregate during load work up.

    If it helps, I shoot farther than 7 yards lol. Most groups are between 20-50 yards.

  • #23988
     Goodsteel 
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    Anything goes Dick. As long as this doesn’t turn into a “mancrush on bullets” thread where we all gush about how awesome they look and how that makes us feel on a personal level, feel free to post anything you want. It’s about holes in the paper.

  • #24009
     Kevin S 
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    Once again Tim you are coming up with cutting edge tests. I would be very interested in the minute how tos that get you to your endgame.
    If I learn half as much with this thread as your Consistancy In Casting thread. I will be a happy camper. Kevin

  • #24081
     Dick 
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    Seems I have some work to do when I get home.

  • #24088
     Goodsteel 
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    Very well done.

    I have only a couple issues.
    1. You do not state a measured range to the target (of course, I neglected to state it as a requirement which I have now corrected).

    2. As per stated rules, you get one flier, so we’ll disregard the one on the far left.

    Still, assuming this was shot at 100 yards, it’s very impressive and you get extra kudos for being the first to put up a real group. Thank you sir!

  • #24094
     Newt 
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    Well I knew I forgot something. I should have mentioned this was at 200 yards.

    NOT. Hehehe. Yes, as for me, ALL my group testing is done at 100 yards. I do shoot up to 200 yards, but I’m always sure to note that.

    As far as those two that are way outside the group, I’d have to argue about. I thought this was a 10 shot group with one flier you were after. There are 12 holes on that target. I intentially loaded that many because I had exactly 12 bullets PC’d, and two of them(the fliers) were wearing aluminum gas checks. I wanted to see where they hit in relation to the copper gas checks.

    I know this is not about a contest, but it doesn’t lend itself to the true nature of the test because they were different from the 10 I loaded for the test. I should have aimed at a different target for them I guess, but figured it would be understood what they were.

  • #24217
     dverna 
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    Newt, that looks really good.

  • #24248
     Goodsteel 
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    dverna;n2366 wrote: Newt, that looks really good.

    I second.
    Even with the two flyers, that’s one of the best PC groups I’ve seen yet. I hope to see more like it.

  • #24267
     Newt 
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    Thanks guys. But really, I just wanted to show how well PC has performed for me. I really thought the extra two shots would be understood for what they were, I should have not done that for the sake of confusion.

    I loaded the rest of the brass I had primed tonight. Guess how many…..yep, 12. But I’ll only put 10 on paper this time. I’ll stick the target at the 200 yard mark. Last time I shot a group, only 5 shots, I was at 1.5″ at 200 yard. Talk about a grin on someone’s face. We shall see what tomorrow after work brings with 10 shots.

  • #24300
     chutesnreloads 
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    At 200 yards?…..I’d call that good

  • #24322
     Newt 
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    I goofed. Sorry, the day I was shooting at that range I had started at 100 with less than 1 in, moved to 150 and that’s where I shot the 1.5 in, then moved out to 200 where I shot a 2 1/4 in group. It hit me last night that I mixed that up. Or, maybe it was a premonition? hehehe

  • #24323
     Newt 
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    I guess it was subconscious wishful thinking. I think its capable though. That day I tested I only shot 5 round groups, I am sure they would open up with 10 shots.

  • #24336
     dverna 
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    Not many people can achieve that kind of accuracy at 200 yards shooting jacketed. Even if they have a great rifle and excellent ammo, the wind eats their lunch. And then there is the “pucker factor”. Frankly, if I could get 1.5″ at 100 yards consistently (with cast) I would be one happy camper. Newt, you are doing very well. I admire your abilities

    Don

  • #24342
     Newt 
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    Honestly, I do nothing special. Not to sound like I have a green thumb when it comes to shooting or anything, just want people to know it does not take a lot of expensive stuff. The one thing I do that is probably different than most is I shoot a LOT. When I work up a load, I can go through hundreds of rounds. In fact, I am just now settling down on my load(having confidence in it) and I’ve gone through around 500 rounds. I take a powder I want to use and use a minimum of .5 grain increases starting way low and working to max.

    I’m going to get my boys Rossi 308 out tonight and shoot a group for you guys. I have not shot a 10 shot group with it before, but 5 shot groups were right at 1in at 100 yards with some PC’d bullets. I was impressed for it being a Rossi.

  • #24386
     Goodsteel 
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    Git-er-done Newt! Thank you for taking the time to focus an effort on this. It’s going to help a lot of people.

  • #24432
     Newt 
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    I appreciate you for suggesting this. I normally do not shoot more than 5 shot groups. But realize now that a lot can be learned from 10 shot groups. I don’t think that I’ll shoot 10 shot groups all the time, but I can see the benefit.

  • #24433
     Newt 
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    Ok, 200 yard target time. Very interesting. We had a constant breeze blowing yesterday, but it was not too bad. My weather station says around 6 mph w/ 14 mph gusts. Point being, PC may not affect group size a whole lot, but wind will play havoc. Just stick that in the back of the mind when you see the target.

    I tried to wait between gusts and also to where the breeze was not hitting the side of my face so much. My range runs E-W, and the wind was coming out of the S.

    I stapled the target to a board that sits beside my gong. I used the two extra rounds I loaded to make sure I was even going to be on paper. First shot hit dirt and I realized I had not set my elevation turret. I have to go up 5 MOA from 100 yards. Next shot was on the gong, which tore the target from splatter, and I saw I was hitting about 3-4 in to the right(darn breeze). Only having 10 shots left I set my windage to compensate and shot three times. Wanting to make sure I was not wasting my time I ran down and looked real quick. Those three shots are the ones that are around the upper left black square. To say the least I was tickled.

    After that I really tried to concentrate, next few shots I did not see, but then the next(6th) I saw I hit way high/left. Bummer. I had to take the kids somewhere, so I shot the last 4 rounds rather quickly.

    After I got home I figured I would throw 10 together real quick and just shoot the gong. At least you can see the hits peel away paint, almost like those splash targets. You can also see where the bullet hit. I marked them with red dots just in case you can’t tell. First shot was not on the gong. Not sure what happened there.

    Its always fun shooting at that range, just never did it before for groups. I just like to hear the steel ring. 🙂 It was an interesting show of things though. Both times it looks like there are 2 separate groups(to me at least). Before I take my gun apart and do the pillar/bed job I am going to take the time and weigh out some bullets and cases and load some of the best rounds I can, then do the test again. Should be interesting to see the results. But, the whole point of this I believe, is to show that PC can be substituted quite well for lube.

  • #24434
     Newt 
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    I also got out my son’s Rossi 308. I got it for him for Christmas. I worked up both a cast and jacketed load rather quickly. It was probably the easiest gun I have found a load for. It probably has less than 200 rounds through it.

    Again, never shot more than 5 shot groups with this gun so I was very intrigued by the 10 shot group. I actually did two of them. First one I realized my windage was off(or those darn gusts were effecting me), so I wanted to shoot another. One other thing is I have only been shooting my .223 for the last few months, which has a high powered scope. So when I picked this one up with half the magnification power, it was very clear to see that a small aiming point is a good thing if your wanting the smallest groups.

    I figured it might be kind of hard to pick out all 10 shots because of the shot up target behind this one.

    If you took out the 3 hits that are by themselves, your left with a 7 shot group that comes in under an inch – I know that’s not the point of this test, but I figured I would just point that out. 😎

    Rossi 308 Winchester. 23″ barrel(measured from breech to crown)
    Vortex Crossfire 2 3×9-50
    Lee TL313-160-2R sized to .310″
    TNQ 7.62×51 brass
    Federal Primers
    IMR 4227 – 17 grains
    1500 fps average on chrony
    100 yards

  • #24435
     Newt 
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    The load data and all is the same from before, just the range has changed.

  • #24466
     Goodsteel 
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    Popper, thanks for jumping in. Would you mind posting the original unedited target along with particulars about the firearm and load used? Everyone here can tell the difference between a good group and a bad one without “visual enhancements”.

    Remember guys, this is not a contest. I asked for no measurements of groups. All I specified was an unedited picture of the target, A distance to the target, load data, and the gun you did it with.
    That’s about as easy as it gets right?

  • #24474
     chutesnreloads 
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    I like Newts connection of being good at shooting and doing it “a LOT”Guys that are known as successful fishermen all have one thing in common……they go fishing “a LOT”Guys that are known as good hunters have one thing in common…..they go hunting “a LOT”

  • #24475
     Newt 
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    Might not be a contest, but some context to it is needed. PC is only one part of a round. Be kind of like posting a bunch of targets that only had loads that used a certain powder. They might all be bad, or even good, but without context you couldn’t say whether or not it was due to the powder or something else. But I get keeping the pictures as clean as possible.

  • #24478
     Goodsteel 
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    That’s a big 10-4, and the groups speak to what is possible if you PC "a LOT".

  • #24491
     Newt 
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    I would not say I’m good at shooting, for the record. Lol. What I meant by shooting a lot was a kin to a blind squirrel finding an acorn. The more he wanders around, the more likely it is he finds one. I find good loads because of the amount of testing I do.

    To me, hunting accuracy is all I look for from cast bullets. And I like to squirrel hunt with all my guns. So I figure that I have to get a gun shooting around 1 – 1.5 in. Given ranges of course. Pistols it’s 20 yards or so. Iron sights is 50, scoped its 100.

    I’ve had the most fun with the .223. Been picking off squirrels at 150-160 yards.

  • #24528
     Dick 
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    You keep finding those acorns because you actually look for them, lol. How often do you see “What’s the best load for XXXX cartridge and gun?” posted on forums? Those people don’t find many acorns because they don’t look for them. I applaud your testing and it is great stuff to read!

  • #24530
     Newt 
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    I don’t have a scope on my 30-30, but I’d be tickled with a group like that at 200 yd.

  • #24531
     Doughty 
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    Yeah Newt, the writing on the picture is a little misleading. The rifle is a Ruger #1 with a heavy Hart barrel and custom bench rest wood. It was originally chambered in .30-30. Some years ago I shortened the breech end of the barrel by one thread, so about .062. I didn’t re-chamber, I just size the brass with a shortened sizing die and then trim the neck a little. I call it a .30-30 Short. I shot this target with breech seated bullets. I use the same case for each shot, so a little brass goes a long way.

  • #24541
     Goodsteel 
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    Well done sir.
    I know your load data is your own being that it’s a wildcat of sorts, but would you mind sharing what powder you used to accomplish this feat?

  • #24574
     Doughty 
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    Tim, I used about 13 grains of Accurate Arms #9 that is probably over 10 years old. The primer was FED large pistol. I also used a Sill Seal wad about an 1/8″ above the powder. Also, for those that don’t know, the target is an ASSRA 200 yard target, so the 25 ring is 1.5″ and the rings are .75″. Also, to give some perspective, over the past 3 years my average score in this event is 243. This target, the only one on which I used PCed bullets was scored a 246. My highest score was a 248. So, PC seems very comparable to conventional lubing in this type of shooting.

  • #24575
     Goodsteel 
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    I too have noticed very little difference between PC and GG in my rifles below 1400FPS.

  • #30889
     reloader762 
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    Been wanting to get out for awhile and shoot some handloads in my Hi Point 45 ACP carbine,I had around 300 of the Lee 200 gr. SWC I cast up from 50/50 and powder coated to work up a load with. I took the original sights off the carbine as I didn’t like them very much an replaced it with a Tasco 3 MOA Red Dot and zeroed it in fairly close with some Federal 230 gr. FMJ’s before attempting to shoot the 200 gr. handloads. The 10 shot string average was 1010 fps.

  • #30891
     Goodsteel 
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    Very nice group!!! Do you plan on trying to lob them out there, or is this strictly a short range proposition?
    If you can get a RN to shoot that well, you might be surprised how far they’ll shoot accurately. My dad used to ring a 6″ steel at 100 yards nearly every shot with his custom MKIV Colt 1911. The cartridge can do it.

  • #30901
     reloader762 
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    Goodsteel;n10829 wrote: Very nice group!!! Do you plan on trying to lob them out there, or is this strictly a short range proposition?
    If you can get a RN to shoot that well, you might be surprised how far they’ll shoot accurately. My dad used to ring a 6″ steel at 100 yards nearly every shot with his custom MKIV Colt 1911. The cartridge can do it.

    Thanks considering how fat the dot was on the Tasco I was pleased. 100 yds. would be nice I just don’t have the opportunity to shoot anything at that distance very often as safe shooting areas at that range are limited around here. There are a few areas that I get to go to once in a blue moon where I can shoot 100 yds. or further out but for the most part around my home place 50 yds. is a plenty. I do have the Lee 230 gr. TL-RN that I’m PC’ing as well and will be trying it out later along with a Lee 452 -252-SWC that I cast fora friends 45 LC that I want to try also.

  • #30908
     Goodsteel 
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    reloader762;n10851 wrote:

    Thanks considering how fat the dot was on the Tasco I was pleased. 100 yds. would be nice I just don’t have the opportunity to shoot anything at that distance very often as safe shooting areas at that range are limited around here. There are a few areas that I get to go to once in a blue moon where I can shoot 100 yds. or further out but for the most part around my home place 50 yds. is a plenty. I do have the Lee 230 gr. TL-RN that I’m PC’ing as well and will be trying it out later along with a Lee 452 -252-SWC that I cast fora friends 45 LC that I want to try also.

    That’s good stuff. I had really good results from the Lee 230RN. I traded off my mold a few years ago (kinda regret that. It was an awesome 6 cavity) but it was a homerun design no doubt, and probably a total gimme with PC.

  • #46010
     popper 
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    Guess the old pics got lost.

    300BO 1:10 18″ AR carbine

    145gr PB (31-142C)  HF red ESPC

    16.7 H110 reformed 223 range pickup, neck turned.  CCI srp.

    308W 1:10 16″ AR carbine.

    165gr GC (31-165)  HF red ESPC

    40.5gr H4895  LC07 brass

    Alloy is ~4%Sb with Cu added

    Sorry no un-annotated pics with doc. data.

    All @ 100.

     

     

  • #46024
     Goodsteel 
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    Glad you made it popper!!!

    That’s some excellent shooting there. No flies on those groups at all.

  • #49024
     popper 
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    Finally got to try my load, 308 ESPC cast 168gr GC @ 200.  Not too bad for a BDC scope sighted at 100.  Actually knocked the steel over.

  • #49107
     Goodsteel 
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    I count 8 hits on target popper. I assume the rest of the bullets missed completely?

    Looks like 12″ or more am I right? 6MOAish?

  • #49116
     popper 
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    Nope, one 7mm from a few years back and my friend did the others with my carbine. He ranged for me (never shot the 308 before), then I did 3 shots.  I think he was bored driving the 4×4 down to reset the target.  Next time I’ll take the 24″ upper and try 400.  Dang, took the scope off it cause the GK said he might want it.  Too heavy.  So got to set it up again.

    Oh, did try a couple jacketed, I just went over the top, didn’t compensate for BC.  I do owe him a rattle can of white, we had fun with the BO pistol.

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