This topic contains 7 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Goodsteel 1 year, 10 months ago.

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  • #48360
     Milkman 
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    I dabbled in paper patching for smokeless powder several years ago without too much success, but I find myself reading about it again and we probably all know where that can lead.   I have some questions first from those who have been successful….

    Can you easily get jacketed velocity ( or near it ) from factory twist barrels? Such as 10 twist in 30 cal.

    Can you easily get jacketed accuracy ( or near it ) using factory twist barrels?  Most statements are “good accuracy”, shot well””,  “targets looked good” type comments. My ILGTM  (it looks good to me)  Standard is 1.5″ at 100 yd for cast.

    Is 1.5 min accuracy fairly easily attainable with factory twist barrels, at jacketed velocity using grease groove or tumble lube bullets?

    I asked about “easily” in the previous questions because I really don’t want to invest in new molds, barrels, special equipment right now.  I don’t mind trying, adjusting, manual labor, I just don’t want to get into it right now if it is going to be a lot of expense.

    And before I’m asked, I really have developed no interest at all in powder coat. No offense, just me.

     

     

     

  • #48365
     Larry Gibson 
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    I’ve dabbled in PP’d bullets in 30, 31 and 8mm several times in the past also.  I also had limited success.  Biggest problem I had was related to consistency……never seemed to get the same performance consistency.  Any load or patching method that seemed to work one time would not work the next.  Also from magazine bolt actions the rim of the feeding cartridge would damage the PP of the cartridge still in the magazine.

  • #48375
     Goodsteel 
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    To answer:

    Yes

    No

    No

    You start needing hip waders when you get into the smokeless paper patch game. People want a “yes yes and yes” answer so bad, they’ll back it up with three shot groups from single range sessions.

    Fact is, there are many variables, and you have to control things that were not considered before.

    The concept is simply stated, but hardly done: cast the right bullets with the right alloy and always use an identical patch. Bueno!!!

    Yeah, not so easily done. First, the wall pressure you put on the paper jacket is critical. This is effected by alloy, hardness of alloy, size of the bullets, and guaranteeing these things are PERFECTLY CONSISTENT every time. The easiest way to do this is to stay away from weak alloys. You need bullets that ARE what they ARE, and do not change with time. Thus: binary alloys, or eutectic alloys are preferable such as 16-1, or Lyman #2.

    The bullet will slip under the patch as it is engraving (no, you will not see this in the rifling marks left on the bullet after it traverses the barrel) so you need a bullet with a lot of bearing surface (lovern style bullets are pretty much mandatory, although some success has been had with other styles). You must have patches that are absolutely consistent in length and thickness. Change paper and you’re back to square one.

    Now. On your maiden voyage, you’ll take everything I’ve said here and I guarantee you, your first attempt will end in dismal failure. Welcome to HV paper patching!!! The important thing is that you had a controlled start. Once you shoot, scientific method must take over and you must be very cleaver about not deviating from it under any circumstances: Change ONE THING. Shoot a ten shot group. Compare. Repeat. Always move toward excellence. This is the path to HV paper patching.

    So this is very SIMPLE in concept, but it requires a gross expenditure of carefully assembled hand loads to get there, and feels very similar to prospecting for gold.

    If you stay with it, you will find a load that delivers golden results most of the time, but when it’s all said and done, I’d rather shoot jacketed. Sometimes the juice just ain’t worth the squeeze. It wasn’t for me, but maybe it will be for you?

  • #48378
     Milkman 
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    AWWWW  Tim, Say it ain’t so!!   You waited till Christmas morning to tell me there ain’t no Santy Clause?? ( by the way, what are you doing out of bed at 3:01 AM? )   Surely if there is magic in Frosty’s silk hat there is just a little in that paper wrapping.

    Ok, no part of paper patching is easy.  It requires more consistency than I can probably produce.  It would require some small (ha ha) outlay for additional casting equipment and supplies.  My eyes are going bad which would make getting the patches on correctly difficult.  I have crushed 3 vertebrae which makes sitting bent over a table difficult. I have arthritis in my fingers which would make rolling the jackets on hard and painful.

    I think I just might give it a try.

  • #48380
     kens 
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    Basically, you are saying that paper patch will not overcome RPM threshold, correct??

    What if you used a slow twist barrel, then how does paper patch compare to common lube?

  • #48391
     popper 
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    Tried it for 30/30 few years back, went straight to PC.

  • #48402
     Harter 
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    GS will get out the wet towel and give me running lessons I expect for this .

    I set a simple standard for every load . Exceptions will be noted for special needs . It must match or , preferred , best factory ammo in enough to make it worth the time . It must be adequate to harvest game cleanly .
    Obviously this eliminates the 10 through one 2 caliber dia hole requirement . In my worst case development I had an SKS with 24″ barrel at 50 yd off hand shooting kept 10 on an antifreeze jug and seated with a rest and lots of focus on the sights and control over the 3 ft or so trigger travel I could keep it on the jug at 100 8/10 about 8/10 .

    The bore/groove was .305×.3165 and a fired case would accept a Lee 323 175 and chamber it at .323 with it seated to the crimp groove . The gas port swallowed a .128/#30 drill bit with wiggle room .

    Using a.310 dia 200 gr spitzer of my hack and slash design I was able to achieve 1675 fps with magazine length loads that shot fairly consistent repeatable 3×5″ groups of 5-10 rounds and it only took 150 rounds of polishing and 100 rounds of back tracked load redevelopment . Loaded long and single fed I achieved 1800 fps and a more oval group of 2.5×4 .

    Looking at the rifle and jacketed factory ammo I made huge strides in improved consistency and ultimately it would be ok for hogs in the weeds I guess .

    The success or failure in the finished product of paper patch is going to be on the user and their standard for target performance or the performance target .
    It adds at least 10 variables to every load .
    It will make you pull your hair out when striving for full best jacketed speeds .
    It will introduce you to things like base powder peening messing with you by displaying bad crown symptoms of course the folded or twisted tails will muck up the bases too . Some guns that are polished glass will tear patches some as slick as 40 miles of wash board gravel road will feed fine . Then there’s wet/dry/lubed/glued or not and which combination .

    Special moulds ……….yes and no . I’m yet to have a lovern type shoot well naked so no real input there .
    270 to 7mm was an acceptable step up for my needs in full power loads in a little bitty case at well past 60kpsi . However that particular assembly was done by GS and had a huge advantage going in I won’t even wade around in rev theory the 8.5 twist 7mm barrel delivered on demand groups inside 1″ at 100-110 yd Al the way up to blown primers with a 27-130 RCBS in a 7×6.8 built on a Carcano action . The 27-130 however as loaded was 143 gr ……um jacketed data for 130s was probably not the best idea there . Also the gas control of the Carcano is better than you would think . Free extraction also , ok it was firm but not what I’d call sticky ……
    Moving along .
    An NOE 260-120 FP (SP fits the description better) makes a useable bullet in 264/6.5 standard barrels . However I didn’t and in the rifle in question wouldn’t drive it wide open . Hits were easy and one after another on a 400 yd 18″ plate using a 1800 fps load of Unique in a 264 WM not being any where near a nominal load I don’t know whether to count it as a success or not it was fun to shoot so I guess it goes in the exception column .
    I have a 270-140 NOE to go with a 6.8 SPCII after some successes with cast and the 279-124 achieving near jacketed speeds I think that I would take that with the 140 . I also have a couple of other singles to try from Lyman and Ideal 266s . The current 5R barrel I don’t think will play well with the Lymans though the proven cast load in the other barrel didn’t play well on target so I have work to do with it .

    For interchange cals you have ,
    6mm fat-25 new.
    25-264 low mileage.
    264/6.5 fat to new/low mileage 270
    270-7mm new low mileage.
    7mm skinny – GI
    30-31 , the 301618 clone takes a lot of work out of this and would be a getting your feet wet suggestion in either the 172 or 202 weight .
    8mm J , 318 mould would be suitable for STD 32 and 8mm .
    Some pistol bullets will work well in 45 rifles . If you have a heavy weight for a 460 and want to shoot it in your 45-70 450 or 458 it should do nicely , still working this with a Mountain 453-350 RNFP intended for a 460/45 Raptor.
    44 cal BP pistol moulds may or may not work with a 45 cal pistol cartridge . I have a .448 example of a 430426 . There was nothing to be gained in Colts but maybe in the Raptor .

    Super hard alloys don’t seem to be essential to game load success . The rev theory is still out with paper patch , 1 success with it doesn’t make it a proof and it has demonstrated more often that it still applies than that it is beaten . In the 7×6.8 case I would say that the bullet in question was using the twist at optimum and I don’t have a clue why it worked like it did .
    Yes you can reach jacketed speeds .
    Yes it’s doable with parts on hand and a couple of special sizers.
    It’s worth it for small batches of low volume .
    Sometimes you can beat the rev theory but I have zip for target proof of bullet survival .

    I will say that paper will allow you to go faster and at least as accurate/consistent as any cast loads and give the heavy for cartridge bullets a good shot at beating the jacketed cousins .

    Paper will remain on my bench as a tool for abnormally large bores , fixing the ugly ones if possible and demonstration of possiblities .

  • #48410
     Goodsteel 
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    Kens, I do believe the paper patched bullet will overcome the RPMTH and so does breach seating the bullets which is why I put so much design time into the 30XCB bullet. But the time and effort it takes to learn how to patch and load to do this is staggering. Its just like trying to beat the wind. You can sort of pretend like you did as long as the range is short, and so is the round count, but to say it’s easily demonstrable fact is a stretch from here to Erwin Tennessee.

    Now, saying that paper patching allows you to shoot fast, but not holding any standards for precision is a bit of a whack-bonk idea. I mean if we don’t care about dragging our hard earned precision along for the ride, kicking and screaming all the way to the chronograph, then I can snap my suspenders and say that I can shoot pure lead bullets from a 10 twist 300 winmag at 3500FPS without lube or a gas check, and I’m not lying. I can actually do that. Can’t hit anything at 100 yards to save my life, but the chronograph gives the numbers I want, so there. Ask me for precision and I’ll post low velocity groups. Ask me for speed and I’ll post high velocity chronograph readings. You can play both sides against the middle like this for YEARS and there are some on other forums that have. That’s not how we roll here, because nobody really gives a rip how fast the bullets go over the chronograph if there’s not also a reasonable chance of hitting what you’re shooting at.

    That said, the simple truth is that you certainly CAN shoot HV with precision (at least sometimes) with paper patched bullets and beat the RPMTH or at least negate it to some degree. That is a simple fact, and I’ve done enough of it to be convinced that is true.

    The problem is, and has been eluded to by several experienced shooters here: Consistency. When you’ve finally gotten to the point where you see the precision at HV, and you have the targets to show for it, you go out to shoot the next weekend and the precision is not there anymore. You’ll be asking WTFO? That’s the point where most folks throw in the towel and say “forget this noise”. If you’re willing to shake your head, smile, and continue on at that point just because you enjoy futsing with it, I do believe you might find a trick that brings a lot more consistency to the table session to session, but I dare say at that point, you’re not a shooter, you’re not a reloader, you’re a paper patcher purely to the core.

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