- September 13, 2016 at 11:21 pm #30050
Ok so I’m pondering this question in my mind not really sure how to ask it but here goes. Say I take a rifle like my Mosin with a 1: 10 twist bore,using my Lee 185 gr. GC bullet cast for WQWW + 2% Tin and a slow push powder like IMR or H-4895,good usable velocity and accuracy is probably going to be somewhere around 1800 to 1900 fps. with that particular bullet weight/Length/Twist.
Just for curiosity sake let say I buy a PP core mold of the correct dia. at or of similar weight / length and patch the bullet up to groove dia. using the same alloy or harder to withstand higher velocity/pressure. Using the same powder which has the ability to push a cast bullet much faster does the paper patched bullet give me any advantage velocity / pressure wise over the standard gas check/lubed bullet in the same 1:10 twist barrel.
Are the rotational forces as in RPM imparted on the bullet by the 1:10 twist the same if it’s paper patched or not,does the paper jacket allow you to push the bullet faster with the same twist rate an does it distribute the rotation forces more evenly over the length of the bullet in a different way rather than the lead bullet having direct contact with the bore or should I just look at the paper patch as basically being a lube? Hope some of the more learned individuals on here can read between the lines. I just got off a 12 hr. day with no lunch break and my brain is in simple mode.
- September 14, 2016 at 12:49 am #30052AnonymousInactive
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Well stated question. I look forward to hearing some replies from the folks that paper patch. Thanks for the post.
- September 14, 2016 at 3:17 am #30053uber7mmParticipant
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As I understand the theory, one can push a paper patch bullet in a smokeless chambered rifle at jacket velocities. Members of other forums suggest to start paper patch testing at published minimum loads of jacketed bullets of the same weight.
In comparison, lead bullets sized to groove diameter (or .001″ – .002″ over) which are subject to the RPM limitations, with regards to the twist.
- September 14, 2016 at 4:39 am #30056
Generally speaking, paper patched bullets can be driven faster for the same accuracy and hardness. Several years ago, (before he left CBF for philosophical reasons) Pdawg.shooter did a very detailed write-up on his project of attaining sub-MOA accuracy at 3000fps from a stock 300RUM. Never heard of anyone achieving that with a naked cast bullet. There are a few caveats. The patch has to be perfect. That means no overlap, no gap. Also, a slow powder that gives complete case fill. Seating the bullet into the lands is often necessary. Most people have the best luck with grease-grooved bullets. The grooves grip the patch. The general consensus is that the easiest bullets to patch are the Loverin designs. A Loverin cannot shuck its patch. They also lend themselves well to the drastic sizing without warping. The general starting point is to size the bullet about .001″ over bore and the wrapped bullet to about .001″ over groove diameter and experiment from there. Lube on the patch can help, especially at high velocities. Just like lubed bullets, not all guns will work with patched bullets. If the throat damages the patch, it will not work. Brass also needs to fit the chamber well. One thing I like to try with any new setup, though, is to leave the bullet as-cast and patch it with a paper that makes it fit fired brass without sizing. It does not always work, but it’s worth a shot because brass lasts practically forever when you don’t size it (unless you really put on the pressure).
In short, patching falls somewhere in between lubed bullets and jacketed bullets. I would not call it easy, but it is neat and can fill a niche sometimes.
- September 14, 2016 at 3:02 pm #30060
JPHolla pretty much nailed it. However, even though paper patching dangles the carrot of HV in fast twist in front of you, it is not a plug and pay thing. My first attempts at HV were made with PP and I spent an entire summer shooting thousands of bullets and testing testing testing to figure out what ONE RIFLE needed.
Attempting to apply the same method to the next rifle was a failure and I found I was back at square one with many tests required to get the next rifle up to par. I ended up deciding that PP was just too much fussing for my level of patience, and I went back to trying to find a way to shoot standard grease groove bullets at HV witch ultimately led to the XCB project.
That said, I wouldn’t take back the time I spent learning to paper patch, and I’m glad I did it.
- September 14, 2016 at 5:28 pm #30063
Exactly, it’s definitely not as plug-and-play as jacketed; it’s more akin to lubed bullets. That’s why we don’t see patched ammo on store shelves. Every rifle is different. If you think you may like it, you probably will. Just don’t be dis-illusioned that it’s the simplest, be all, end all approach to loading. I still load all three ways. It just depends on the situation.
- September 14, 2016 at 9:58 pm #30066AnonymousInactive
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To expose my total lack of knowledge on the subject, what kind of paper or papers are used and if different ones, why?
- September 14, 2016 at 10:12 pm #30067
Well I’ve patched and shot some bullets in my Mosin M44 with fairly good results but I really wasn’t trying to push them any harder than normal gas check cast bullet,so that probably tells me nothing. I was using some bullets sized down as small as I could get them but they were still a couple thousands in dia. to large according to what I’ve read. I may play around with it more this winter when it’s to cold out to do much of anything else but I have a few other cast load projects that I have to get settled on before I take on a new project. I understand that it’s a bit more tedious work to get good results but I like a challenge and I basically have everything I need paper wise,I just need a good core mold.
- September 14, 2016 at 11:05 pm #30069
retread;n9703 wrote: To expose my total lack of knowledge on the subject, what kind of paper or papers are used and if different ones, why?
I’ve heard of individuals that use all kinds of paper. Onion skin,25% Cotton,regular old copy paper and Green Bar printer paper like that used in old dot matrix printers which is what I have is also popular. If I recall an that is sketchy at times is that the thickness is important to get the right dia. as you are suppose to wrap the bullet two complete turns so that the length of the wrap which you cut ends where the patch started underneath but doesn’t overlap an cause a bulge as the bulge can cause the bullet to deform when it enters the leads and is squeezed down. If I recall as it’s been awhile the paper I used plus the dia. of the bullet gave me about .001″ over groove dia. I lubed the patch with Lee case lube ie die makers wax,clipped the tail off and ran it through my .314″ Lee push through sizer which is what I size my regular cast bullets at.
Here is a pic of one of my 54r patched bullet sorry about the dirty patch but I use that Lee sizer quiet often for sizing tumble lubed bullets. If you look close you can see the hair line at a 45 degree angle where the patch ends at the same point it started underneath. I should also mention that I wet patch and let them dry overnight before lubing and sizing,some dry patch as well.
- September 15, 2016 at 12:45 am #30072
Looks good! Sounds like you are on the right track. Like much of casting, use whatever paper works best. It’s just a variable you can change in order to get the size you need and results you desire. I don’t get too crazy with it. I usually find plain notepad paper to work pretty well. It tends to be a good compromise of toughness and softness when wet. I usually wet-patch smaller bullets, but try to get away with dry-patching ones that are large enough. I have one 45-70 for which I pretty much exclusively dry-patch. Pure lead 340gr at 2000fps or 300gr at 2200 and it works pretty well. Haven’t killed anything with it yet, but it makes a very impressive crater in the side of a clay berm. IIRC the bullet mushroomed to ~1.8″ at it’s widest point!!! Just a six inch tunnel with the flattened bullet still stuck dead-center to the back of the hole. I’ve never tried a core mold, but I guess they would work if they cast the right size and shape slug. Sizing the bullets isn’t bad as long as they size concentrically.
- September 15, 2016 at 2:49 pm #30082
I’ve tried dry patch, wet patch, lubed patch, unlubed patch, Onion skin, 100% cotton rag, Green bar, printer paper, notepad paper, cigarette paper, and the paper from the free targets at the range.
Ultimately, I had best results from Green Bar, and I still have a lifetime supply of it.
I also made dozens of bullet sizers, custom molds, custom neck expanders, etc etc etc
The paper, neck tension, bullet size (as well as hardness and alloy), and patch length seem to be the most important areas to focus on, and only a careful use of scientific method, along with a good dose of luck will get you to home plate. You also have to have just the right propellant.
I see paper patching as a glorious expenditure of time focused on getting all the details lined up. In truth, I would not have the aproach I take toward building rifles if it were not for the lessons I learned patching (summed up by the statement: “All details must point North, and when they do, the whole is greater than the sum of parts”).
- September 15, 2016 at 8:26 pm #30087HarterParticipant
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I’ve had some successes with it and some were easy …….I was traveling well traveled ground with extremely low expectations with 1 rifle and was actually very pleased with the results . Like Tim I also spent a lot of time throwing things on the ground and cussing because that last little detail should have fixed everything went 180 out at warp speed . .
I should also mention that the 1 that worked so easily was in violation of about 75% of the proven rules . About all that was right was the bullet length to twist and the powder choice .
It was an SKS that would take a bare cast sized .323 in the case with a .318 nose and shoot 3×5 . With a couple of store bought loads it would shoot 3×5 and it did so with a papered 200gr spire point self attempt bullet . Fast enough even to make the magical 1ktflb@100 . The barrel was mostly 305×316 being 318×308 .15 in front of the case mouth . That made fit a little tricky but the .312 wrapped in 16# printer paper and ironed out to .318 met the jacketed standard and my suitably low bar.
Green bar paid off in a 308 and 06′ with a 301618 NOE copy . Jacketed speed was there but the match grade groups were someplace in the next county . I’d get inside 3″ and then everything would go sideways. …….. Um shotgun ,the holes stayed round they were just ……well spaced .
In another effort calculator tape worked best but in a 32 Rem and 30 WCF paper is really a waste unless you just want to polish the barrel as reaching book jacketed speeds and groups is pretty easy even with Plain Base bullets .
I love the games so much I even tried Walmart receipt paper in a 222 ……..I don’t think that particular rifle has met a load that it won’t shoot well ……. Why I have no clue .
- September 15, 2016 at 8:43 pm #30089
Sounds about par for the course. That’s what paper patching is like to a T.
- September 15, 2016 at 9:59 pm #30093AnonymousInactive
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From what everyone has said, it would appear that one needs to be a little insane to get into it. How can I resist! By the way Tim, was that green bar 18 or 20#?
- September 15, 2016 at 11:00 pm #30096HarterParticipant
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It think it’s down more like 12-14# , my examples were anyway.
- September 16, 2016 at 1:50 pm #30118
retread;n9737 wrote: From what everyone has said, it would appear that one needs to be a little insane to get into it. How can I resist! By the way Tim, was that green bar 18 or 20#?
Not insane. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. On the contrary, paper patching can be thought of as boot camp to teach you to be a realistic experimenter. If you’re the type that likes to shoot 3 shot groups at 50 yards and try to convince yourself what you are seeing is something better than what it really is, it’s going to be a very humbling experience.
Successful paper patchers are the type of shooters who have a death grip on reality, and a great deal of savvy on using the scientific method several times in comparison to cut to the truth. That’s part of what took me so long that first time. I kept trying to change more than one thing at a time, and my impatience was a self disciplining error.
Mark my words: You can find a solution to the most complicated problem if you simply diagnose your problem with the same method your eye doctor uses to find your perfect prescription.
Change one thing and ask your self which is better: A or B?
Change something else and ask yourself which is better: B or C?
Then, which is better: A or C?
Rinse, lather, repeat.
Secondly, use testing methods that allow you to make these comparisons without false positives. Shoot 10 shot groups at 100 yards minimum (by minimum, I mean if you want to shoot 15 shot groups at 200 yards, that’s all the better as long as you can keep them on paper. You simply must be able to tell whether A is better or worse than B etc etc etc.
You’ll have a “come to Jesus” event if you do the three shot thing because you’ll simply be forced to conclude that you are chasing your tail. By the same token, you’ll think you have an awesome solution at 50 yards, but putting the target at 100 200 or 300 will crush your confidence with extreme prejudice like a piano dropped from a 5th floor window upon your proverbial daisy, blowing wistfully in a spring breeze.
The fact is, we are not naturally disposed toward this way of thinking and it takes discipline in order to cultivate it. Paper patching pretty much ax murders the blissful ignorance most shooters enjoy with extreme prejudice, but if you are successful with several firearms, you can succeed in any ballistic endeavor you hope to achieve. That’s my 2 cents worth.
Now, the best thing you can do is score a copy of “The Paper Jacket” and read it through a couple times (this is something else I did not do).
Score some onion skin paper and some green bar.
Notice NOE’s neck expander offerings. You’ll want that.
Notice NOE’s bullet sizing dies (which I had a small part of helping design) and plan on buying a couple of them in sizes that are 1.bore diameter, 2.+.001, 3. +.002 (one of them will end up being the golden goose).
A nice neck sizing die is a good thing because you can hone out the business end of it to work your brass less.
Try to find a Lovern style bullet mold that drops closer to your measured bore diameter.
Unify your lead stash so you are always working with the same hardness of bullets. Different alloys may give different results, but varying alloys will blow your groups.
Use a sizer that is .001 over groove diameter. Wrap a bullet that is the alloy and hardness that you intend to test and sized to somewhere in between your bore and groove size. Wrap it with a paper you choose, and ram it through the sizer. Unwrap it, and measure it. You’re after a paper that is thick enough to size the bullet down to .001 over bore diameter all by itself, so when you wrap the bullets that are that size, you have maximum wall pressure and a tight fitting patch.
Size your bullets to .001 over bore diameter, wrap them, then run them through a sizer that is .001 over groove diameter. If you did it right, you’ll have a very slick patch that is perfectly compressed and ready to be shot. The bullet will spring back about .001-.002 over the next 2-3 hours and when that happens, it needs to be exactly the size of your throat entrance, so preparatory measurement of your chamber characteristics as well as a good grasp of how things spring back cannot be understated.
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