This topic contains 16 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  popper 1 year, 11 months ago.

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  • #48279
     Goodsteel 
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    I carry a 10mm S&W 1076. I carry that specific firearm because if you shoot a badguy with it, even if he’s wearing body armor, hell be very sorry he survived the experience (if he survives at all).

    The 1076 has a more supported and better constructed chamber than any 10mm handgun in existence. It was made to handle the original Norma loads which were pushing a 200 grain lead bullet at over 2200FPS.

    My question is, which is better in a real situation?

    200 grain cast cooking off at 1200 fps, or a 180XTP doing 1300+?

    Ive already installed a 28lb recoil spring in my pistol, I have no doubt it will take everything I throw at it, and this is one firearm I intend to run the socks off of it.

    Opinions?

  • #48285
     kens 
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    it sounds like you need some more boxes of wet sawdust to experiment with.

  • #48288
     Rattlesnake Charlie 
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    If you are looking at the single application of stopping bad guys, go with the 180 gr at the higher velocity. You’ll get more hydraulic shock and less over-penetration. Don’t overlook the 155 gr XTP for this application. My tests on water filled gallon water jugs were spectacular. With the bullets stopping in the 4th or 5th jug you still have sufficient penetration. I never tried any 200 gr JHPs.

    How does your S&W barrel compare to the EAA Witness 10mm as far as support goes? I’ve never had any “smilies”, even with full powered loads.

    I purchased a 6″ barrel for it just before Thanksgiving, but have not yet had a chance to try it out to see what improvement it makes over the 4.5″.

  • #48289
     Glenn 
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    For anti personell, my vote would be for the 180 XTP

  • #48295
     Goodsteel 
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    I’ll take a closeup of the barrel RC, but it’s very similar.

    Just for the record, I’m not concerned with over penetration. I’m concerned with the regularity with which bad guys are wearing body armor. I don’t want to defeat the body armor, I want to turn the sucker inside out. I bought the 1076 from a buddy who was involved in an unnamed conflict in an unnamed part of the world with an unnamed group of special forces (they were named to me, but I wont repeat the details here). This fellow was carrying a Walther PPK and almost got his butt ventilated by a guy with an AK when they breached a door and he had to defend himself. He popped the guy three times in the chest and he jerked backward three times then started sweeping that AK across to retaliate. A quick fourth shot to the forehead was his only salvation and it was so close that my buddy almost lost complete control of his bodily functions.  He requested a Bren Ten and was denied, but was allowed the 1076. He told me in no uncertain terms that the next time he had to shoot a douchbag with body armor, the sucker stayed down……even though his body armor “worked” the internal damage he suffered almost killed him and that performance was repeated on many occasions. When my buddy upgraded to the 460 Rowland I made him an offer on the 1076 and he accepted it with the understanding that the pistol goes back to him if I ever decide to get rid of it. (I don’t plan on that ever happening).

    So now you know the back story. My buddy was shooting the original Norma loads (200 grain bullet/1200 FPS) but I was doing some informal shooting recently and started wondering if the 180 might actually be more effective? I’ve run into this with rifle rounds before, where too slow/heavy and you start to lose, and the other side of the coin: too fast and light loses as well. I’m a believer in balance…….at a higher performance level. I’m thinking the 180 grain bullet may be just that.

  • #48299
     popper 
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    Let us know when you find a good test medium.    I can send you some 180gr samples of my tyrannosaurus alloy.

  • #48300
     skeettx 
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    Use FACTORY ammo for your carry gun,

    Handloads will be demonized in court

    I try to use the SAME ammo that our local law enforcement uses

    so the question of why that “Killer Ammo” was used is an easy answer

    Mike

  • #48302
     Goodsteel 
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    Sorry skeettx, I carry handloads. End of story.

    My first obligation is to survive to get to court, and I trust my loads more than factory. Besides, I’m an 07 manufacturer. I make custom ammunition tuned to the firearm for people all the time. Exactly which factories are sanctioned by the courts?

    A clean shoot is a clean shoot, and alive is alive. Period.

    Massad Ayoob was the first person to float this rumor of people getting in legal trouble for carrying handloads, and with all due respect to the guru, I DISAGREE.

  • #48303
     Rattlesnake Charlie 
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    That rumor has been disparaged by several of the so called writers.

    Now that we know more of what is hoped for in this selection, we need to look at “momentum”. Assuming that little energy is expended in bullet deformation (hopefully no disintegration) just look to a calculator already available.

    Energy, Momentum and Taylor KO calculator
    http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp

    200 gr @ 1200 fps = 34
    200 gr @ 1250 fps = 35

    180 gr @ 1300 fps = 33
    180 gr @ 1350 fps = 34
    180 gr @ 1400 fps = 36

    If the weight of the bullets were converted to mass and the velocity to m/s, then the unit of measure for momentum would be in joules. Let’s just compare numbers for now.

    Also consider that at a lower velocity less chance of loss of momentum from bullet deformation/disintegration.

  • #48304
     Mooseman 
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    If ya shoot em in the head , body armor is Moot !

  • #48305
     popper 
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    Interesting problem, hitting a semi-solid object – we need to know the force applied to the object.  How much force can be applied to  this object (and the surface behind it!) to cause damage.  F= delV/delT. Consider 168gr @ 1800 fps (1″ long bullet).  Consider a ‘hit’ time of 50 usec.  F=1800/0.00005/7000 =  5100#.  Knocking down a 10# steel pivot target ( ~ 20deg angle change – then gravity takes over) successfully is ~7# on a 3 ft pivot = 17# force.  Note: I did this 3 times with 308W.   3x with 150gr @ 1400 didn’t.   Lets assume half of the energy (force) is lost in a bounce or disintegration. So 2400 # applied in 1/2″ area. equals 1400# spread over the ‘other’ object through an area of 2 sq ft. (288 sq. inch)  2400/288 =  8 psi.  Not much hydrostatic ‘point’ pressure.  Might sting a bit.  If a ‘flexable’ type armor, damage is really done.  Just some mental gymnastics here.

    Point is, for Kevlar, either of your choices should do damage, Ceramic, not so much. Guys with ‘in-service’ experience can chime in anytime.

  • #48306
     Goodsteel 
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    No doubt about it popper, ceramic works. But that just reinforces my point (pun intended). Assuming a hit is made, then it’s either a head shot, or a less than lethal hit. I’m thinking my chances of making a less than lethal hit around the hips or arms is much more likely than a head shot. That being the case, I need to inflict as much trauma as possible.

    At first I was convinced that 200 grain cast was the way to go, but the more I think about it, the more I’m inclined to go with the XTP…….

    I may indeed have to resurrect the box of truth……

  • #48307
     lkydvl 
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    32 years as a cop.  25+ as a firearms and tactical teams instructor.

    Bullet placement is Key.  Doesn’t matter what you shoot.  The 10 mm is not a guaranteed stopper any more than the 45ACP.  Case in point…

    Two dirt bags are sitting in an upstairs room of one’s house.  DB1 is playing with a loaded 10mm semi auto.  He’s not a smart DB so it goes off…striking DB2 in the right side of his chest at a range of about 3 feet.  Bullet travels laterally thru DB2’s chest messing up both lungs and somehow missing his heart.

    DB1 scrambles to ditch the weapon and the empty casing while DB2’s mother calls 911.  DB2 survives this “lethal” gunshot wound and goes on to cause more mayhem.

    As Dr. Martin Fackler, read his research,  SMART man, told us at a LEO firearms Instructors’ conference…there is no substitute for bullet placement.  Shooting the largest caliber bullet you can is always better than relying on bullet expansion.  There is no way that blunt force trauma or hydrostatic shock from a handgun round alone will stop an assailant.  Short of striking the central nervous system, only a loss of sufficient blood flow to the brain will do the trick.

    Plenty of in depth forensic evidence to back up his opinions.

     

    Best advice…shoot what you can shoot and control WELL.  Train a lot and prepare yourself for the trauma of having to face such a situation, respond to it and survive.

     

  • #48308
     popper 
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    Yea, IMO the ‘best shot is a groin shot – if they don’t bleed out at least they wont replicate. So whatever you can ht well with works best.

  • #48309
     Anonymous
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    Tim what ever load you chose will be so much better than say a 9mm

    I know you are a big guy and can handle recoil.

    those to loads are what I would call bear loads and I would not have fun shooting them.

    But, if you were to put 2 paper dinner plates out at 10 ft and did some timed shooting excercises which one would.

    for example (using a shot timer)

    1 shot each target =2 rounds

    2 shot each target = 4 rounds

    1 shot at each target. repeat = 4 rounds total

    A) have the better group

    B) have the better time

     

    I would go with the one with the better group, (it might be hard to decide)

    for your entertainment

  • #48314
     Goodsteel 
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    I’m better with the 180. No doubt about it.

    That said, I shoot nearly every day, and at ten feet I can get em all in there nooooooooo problem. It’s amazing what constant trigger time will get you. I considered myself a pretty fair shot before I moved out to the country, but I’d say my proficiency with both pistol and rifle has easily doubled in the past year.

  • #48317
     popper 
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    With my SA/DA 40 for SD I figure I’d probably ‘point’ at center mass, yanking the trigger would get me a crotch shot first and then when the BG is bent over in pain a second ‘good’ shot at a ‘good’ target.

    FYI, shot at the steel from 200 with 150gr. hograzor ammo, (should be 2k fps @ 200).  still nothing but a tiny nick in the target, think it just knocked the PC finish off on all the hits, cast or jacketed..

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