Viewing 26 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #31627
      Reg
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 40
      • Comments: 256
      • Overall: 296

      In a reply to the 200 yard MOA group over in the Competitors Corner I made mention of “lube purging” as a possible problem concerning flyers.
      Not wanting to hijack the thread thought I would move my .02 worth over here.
      One doesn’t hear too much of this it seems like these days but once upon a time it was under very serious consideration as a factor in overall accuracy with cast bullets. The one article I remembered and mentioned at the time concerned accuracy with pistol bullets but I know it has been out there at one time or another on all cast bullets.
      I never have to this point found that particular article but a quick Google search turned up a really good discussion that about sums up the question on the Cast Bullet Assn, Inc, site. This is a posting dated Tue. Feb.3rd, 2009 @ 1:46 P.M.as posted by cityboy.
      Back at the time I was doing a lot of experimenting with reduced loads in the 22 Hornet caliber for bunnie hunting. We do not have areas of dense brush for rabbit hunting like some parts of the country and it is not uncommon to have to take 100 yards offhand shots but also do not want to make the meat worthless for eating. The bullet was a homemade copy of the Lyman 225107 with a homemade gas check made from aluminum beer cans. Lube started with 45-45-10 and wound up trying about every kind of lube I could buy or dream up.
      Without going into great detail I will say that most of what the guys were talking about on the CBA site I reproduced with what I was playing with so did become a great believer in this business of lube purging. I honestly believe it has merit and should be a strong consideration when try for extreme accuracy at long range with cast bullets.

      While on the subject of cast bullets I often see many of the same questions repeated over and over. Nothing wrong with that, it’s how we learn , but did want to point out a book that is seldom mentioned that actually I think has more information concerning cast bullets than any other two out there, is a great reference work and will answer most of the more common ( and many uncommon ) questions out there.
      Cast Bullets for beginner and expert by Joseph F Brennan Jr. It is put out by the Cast Bullet Assn.
      I think it was actually compiled by Brennan as it actually is a compilation of the writings of such as Ken Mollohan, Rick Bowman and many others who are major players in the cast bullet world.

    • #31628
      Goodsteel
      Keymaster
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 208
      • Comments: 2452
      • Overall: 2660

      One of the things I have focused on in my bullet designs for the XCB project (there are a total of 6 XCB bullets to date), with the help and admonishment of Larry Gibson, has been bullet designs that utilize much less cavernous lube grooves which reflect the advancements in bullet lube made recently.
      The fact is, many of us use what we use, not because it has been carefully thought out, but because it “looks like it’s supposed to”. Going on that extremely unscientific basis, cast bullets are supposed to look like they did when we lubed them with tallow and beeswax (alox? what’s that?).
      The fact is, modern bullet lubricants (especially those made by White Label) are so effective that we can get away with less………MUCH LESS, than you might have thought possible.
      For example, the 30 XCB bullet was designed with three lube grooves that were only .008 deep, and .020 wide. That makes Lee’s tumble lube grooves look like a front end loader. These bullets have been driven to 3200FPS with no leading at all, and speeds of 3000FPS have been demonstrated add nausium with no “lube purging”. Basically, there’s so little lube, it “purges” with every shot because there’s just enough to get the job done. Not to much, not too little.

      However, the slower we shoot, the less pressure there is on the lube to make it wick properly and keep the bullet off the barrel but sealed tightly with it (I actually think of it like an ice skate, floating on a dynamically melting streak of ice.) So the lube must be softer, and/or more of it in order to achieve the same effect.
      Regardless of how you do it, the fact remains that if you use just enough, “lube purging” becomes a consistent build and release in the normal ebb and flow of the firing process, and you’d really like it to finish it’s business within the space of a single shot. If it builds and builds and builds, then jettisons, it sure seems like a logical conclusion is that there’s too much of it in the event.

      This is another reason why it’s worth shooting multiple groups over several sessions in order to determine if everything is pulsing consistently.

      The fact is, certain elements of the cast bullet sport have become highly advanced, but other’s are still stuck in the twenties (like bullet design). I would think a very logical question no one ever asks, nor answer is “If you are experiencing lube purging………why are you still using so much of it?”

      Lee was once again on the cutting edge of cast bullet advancement with their “mule snot” liquid alox. Suddenly, we have tiny lube grooves and a mere film of lube is effectively performing equal to or better than a lube groove the size of buckshot mudder filled with lube. That was one awesome product! In fact, we thinned it down with Johnsons paste wax, and it worked even BETTER!
      Why is that? Where’s the lube purging discussion as it pertains to LLA? Crickets you say? Hmmmmmm.

      I’m not trying to be admit here. Just throwing out some things I’ve seen and done, and witnessed for consideration. I’ve made my conclusions, and I’m running with them. Look at what’s happening with your guns, run a few simple tests, and see for yourself.

    • #31629
      Reg
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 40
      • Comments: 256
      • Overall: 296

      I think the general thought process got into a bad rut back in the mid 60’s when Sierra came out with the contest of sorts where you shoot a one inch ten shot group with one of their bullets and they would send you this neat patch for your “scare” jacket.
      Can you imagine how many box’s of bullets were sold in the attempt to get that group and the patch?? I finally got one of those patches but I had to buy it at a gunshow—- anyway I couldn’t agree with you more. Don’t show me your best group, show me your average and make it a ten shot at least fired from 100 yards if not further.
      Some say you can fire a group at 50 yards and subtend it out to any range you want. Nope. Dont’ work like that. Thats what it will do at 50 yards and you are going to have to go out to whatever further range , fire groups and see what it does there. I think a perfect example of this is the difference in accuracy of a semi wad cutter design in a pistol bullet verses a round nose design. I got my first 44 Mag Rugar back in the mid 60’s and along with it came a old Ideal round nose design mold. Used the heck out of it at any and all ranges and was more than happy with the results. Time went on and I had to have a “real” Keith design. At the shorter ranges it did well but we were shooting a lot of water filled quart oil bottles off the tops of fence posts at 100 yards and for some unknown reason they just didn’t seem to keep up with the old Ideal design. Tried all I could think of at the time and just assumed it had to be some thing I was missing. Later on came the internet and a world of information was soon available. Turns out many others had found out the same thing and in fact it was even known back in the 30’s and 40’s especially with the 38 Special loads used in competition. Full wad cutters are worse. They are super at the old pistol ranges especially at the old 50 foot range but beyond 50 yards they tend to take on a mind of their own.

      All of the above has to be taken into account with the other established facts.
      Bore fit, this is a big one, hardness of the alloy, velocity, etc, etc.

      I think we are still learning and there is more to come. I for one like the Lee Liquid Alox and also play with the 45-45-10 but still use a lube that is stiffer and you have to pan lube. The bullet I mentioned, the 225107 has the older concept of grease grooves I.E. big. I like the bit of a mepla and the gas check but want to cut another cherry using the “tumble lube ” concept. I tried this idea out in a 280 grain design that I used in my Whelen but perhaps due to the load ( I was pushing kinda hard ) barrel length or what ever factors, I found you could not get by with a thin Alox wash. Found I had to use 45-45-10 for a first wash, size the bullet then pan lube with the stiffer lube ( totally fill the grooves ) then a final 45-45-10 wash. No signs of leading at all and accuracy is fantastic but lets not talk about the recoil. These were good stiff loads. If I ever run across a bear out here bet they will work just fine.

      I think there are as many direct factors involved as there are opinions, sure does keep the game interesting !! Don’t it ??

    • #31630
      popper
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 1
      • Comments: 293
      • Overall: 294

      Lube pruging does happen and does affect accuracy. I started casting 40SW with LLA, got leading, changed to Recluse. Normal boolit design. Later i cast RD for the 30/30 and tried LLA, Recluse, peanut butter, veggie oil. Yes, peanut butter worked real well but left goobers on the target @ 100. Veggie oil was the best but a pita to work with. I got into PC & coating but recently tried BLL. I went too thick and got terrible accuracy (30/30 – about like LLA).! Bore was full of gunk & lead. Actually got tipping @ 50 yds. I tried some (properly applied) BLL in the PB BO and worked pretty good. None of my rifle moulds have L.G. anymore.

    • #31631
      Goodsteel
      Keymaster
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 208
      • Comments: 2452
      • Overall: 2660

      popper;n11842 wrote: Lube pruging does happen and does affect accuracy. I started casting 40SW with LLA, got leading, changed to Recluse. Normal boolit design. Later i cast RD for the 30/30 and tried LLA, Recluse, peanut butter, veggie oil. Yes, peanut butter worked real well but left goobers on the target @ 100. Veggie oil was the best but a pita to work with. I got into PC & coating but recently tried BLL. I went too thick and got terrible accuracy (30/30 – about like LLA).! Bore was full of gunk & lead. Actually got tipping @ 50 yds. I tried some (properly applied) BLL in the PB BO and worked pretty good. None of my rifle moulds have L.G. anymore.

      Ever tried any products by White Label (AKA: modern advanced bullet lubes) like 2500+ or 2700+?
      40S&W is a difficult cartridge to load for, as is 9mm due to the high pressure, but proper bullet hardness/toughness (try Lyman #2 or COWW +2.5%tin) coupled with bullets of the right size and the aforementioned lube, might do fairly well for you (nothing against your PBJ loads).

    • #31641
      lar45
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 21
      • Comments: 224
      • Overall: 245

      Peanut Butter? Okay, now I have to try it out.
      Did you lube by hand, then run through a sizer to clean it up, or just smear some on and load?

    • #31650
      Reg
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 40
      • Comments: 256
      • Overall: 296

      Peanut butter ???? Leaving goobers on the target ?????? Aw come on now !!!!!!
      Mom said I was born at night but not last night !!!!

    • #31652
      uber7mm
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 17
      • Comments: 288
      • Overall: 305

      You’ll want to use creamy peanut butter and not chunky…..
      Must smell interesting in any event…..

    • #31654
      Menner
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 4
      • Comments: 120
      • Overall: 124

      I have to agree I found out that more is not better for lube I have pan lubed with 5 different lubes dip lubed with a few more and tumble lubed with XLOX (White Label) LLA and Ben’s LL, My friend that got me into cast shooting swears by LLA but I was doing something he had no desire to do, that was compete and I wanted to get my best accuracy and I was willing to try things to find the best accuracy. I gave all the lubes a fair chance against LLA and I found no better lube for me so far.
      I do agree about the 40 S&W I could not keep it from leading with LLA I think it needs a harder lube will revisit it later but right now I am using JHP that I load, it is my carry gun.
      Right now I am shooting a
      308Win
      30 XCB Bullet sized to .310
      26.5 gr 3031
      1850 fsp
      tumble lubed with LLA 1 time just enough to tell that it is lubed
      Zero leading I have not used bore cleaner in this rifle in over a year 3 dry patches as soon as I am done shooting bore looks like a mirror
      This is a reliable repeatable load I am still tweaking it and I Imagine I always will but it shoots pretty well
      Tony

    • #31655
      Reg
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 40
      • Comments: 256
      • Overall: 296

      ( Grin ) !!

    • #31664
      dragon813gt
      Participant
      • Bronze
      • Posts: 5
      • Comments: 79
      • Overall: 84

      Goodsteel;n11843 wrote:

      Ever tried any products by White Label (AKA: modern advanced bullet lubes) like 2500+ or 2700+?
      40S&W is a difficult cartridge to load for, as is 9mm due to the high pressure, but proper bullet hardness/toughness (try Lyman #2 or COWW +2.5%tin) coupled with bullets of the right size and the aforementioned lube, might do fairly well for you (nothing against your PBJ loads).

      I have a sizer set up for each of those lubes. In 40/10mm I no longer bother. BLL is the real deal and flat out works. I’m slowly switching all my handgun loads over to it. But to be fair I have 20+ cases of the OneStep wax. And White Label is there for the Xlox part of the formula. Almost all my rifle rounds get a costing of BLL as well. It dries harder and prevents a sticky mess when I throw lubed bullets in an ammo can.

    • #31666
      Goodsteel
      Keymaster
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 208
      • Comments: 2452
      • Overall: 2660

      I’ve heard great things about BLL being the bees knees. I still haven’t had the pleasure of trying it. I’ll try to make that a priority,

    • #31669
      uber7mm
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 17
      • Comments: 288
      • Overall: 305

      With further thought on this topic, creamy peanut butter would probably cheaper than all of the ingredients I’ve collected to make my lube over the years. Could always eat the left over lube, if it didn’t perform to expectations. Can’t say that about white lithium based experiments.
      (Might run into Concord grape jelly contamination from time to time, however….. LOL)

    • #31676
      dragon813gt
      Participant
      • Bronze
      • Posts: 5
      • Comments: 79
      • Overall: 84

      If you don’t have a bottle of the wax shoot me a PM w/ your address and I will send you one. I know others are trying out other waxes to see if there is a replacement for the Johnson’s. I bit the bullet and bought all the bottles I could find when I found out it was being discontinued.

    • #31678
      Goodsteel
      Keymaster
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 208
      • Comments: 2452
      • Overall: 2660

      I didn’t realize it was discontinued. More’s the pity.
      I’m not too hung up on it, but if you’d like to send me a small sample of the mixed lube (like a teaspoon’s worth) sometime, that would be fun to play with.

    • #31679
      Goodsteel
      Keymaster
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 208
      • Comments: 2452
      • Overall: 2660

      popper;n11893 wrote: Yea, back when Gear was testing lubes I told him what I was using and he got quite a chuckle from it. That Thanksgiving we were outside Conway with the G.K. First deer hunt (first hunt for any of us). Set up in lawn chairs at the top of Bear Creek. Older boy saw one but was fiddling with his scope and didn’t get a shot. SIL called & said our dog got out and was run over so nobody was in a good mood. We decided to take the 3 boys out to shoot some real guns – they had been runnnig around shooting airsoft for the day before. they has a great time. No bench, I sat on the ground, leaning my elbow on a cooler with the newly cast RD 165 lubed with PB. Got this @ 50 yds. Down & right was an Amax from the AR. Others are 30/30.

      Was that Conway Texas, or Conway Arkansas?

    • #31681
      popper
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 1
      • Comments: 293
      • Overall: 294

      Ar – on bear creek just to the west. We were on the hilltop,~ 400′ above the valley. Nearest ‘town’ had a grocery/gas station pop. maybe a hundred.

    • #31682
      Goodsteel
      Keymaster
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 208
      • Comments: 2452
      • Overall: 2660

      popper;n11898 wrote: Ar – on bear creek just to the west. We were on the hilltop,~ 400′ above the valley. Nearest ‘town’ had a grocery/gas station pop. maybe a hundred.

      Well I’m very sorry you didn’t come visit!
      If you are ever in my area, please call me and come let me shake your hand! If it’s too far, I’ll meet you half way. If you can make it to the shop, we can shoot and swap tales for a while over coffee!!!

    • #31687
      Reg
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 40
      • Comments: 256
      • Overall: 296

      Man, I don’t know. Chow down on some white lithium and you might “performance” like you never dreamed of !!!!

      ( Snicker snicker )

    • #31696
      Larry Gibson
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 55
      • Comments: 507
      • Overall: 562
      • Gold

      Lube purging can be a definite problem with old design moulds (even some “modern” designs) that have large deep grooves. It can also be a very real problem with the wrong lube. I found this out some years back. Over on CBF felix mentioned little squiggles showing up on bullet holes at 100 yards. I also had found that on occasion with some bullets. Felix and I both mentioned it was common with Loverin style bullets in the 6.5 Swede at HV with which we were embroiled in conflict with several self styled resident “experts” on CBF. Needless to say both Felix and I were ballyhooed to no end over the subject. I then started the RPM Threshold testing with 10, 12 and 14″ twist .308W rifles. Irrefutable evidence was then obtained not only on target but also from the vast amount of purged lube that accumulated on the M35P screens. From the examined lube residue it was obvious the purging of the lube was not even, especially as RPM was increased above what is considered “normal” for cast bullets. The uneven purging of lube was unbalancing the bullet in flight leading to some inaccuracy if the lube wasn’t purged immediately off the bullet on exit from the muzzle. Some of it was also still sticking in the groove with a “rope” sticking out to the side. This caused the “squiggles” Felix and I were observing. Once I went to a low viscosity (soft) lube such as Javelina, Tamarack and now 2500+ the lube purged immediately and completely on bullet exit from the muzzle.

      At low velocity/RPM the harder sticky lubes usually do not purge at all and thus don’t present this problem.

      Larry Gibson

    • #31697
      Goodsteel
      Keymaster
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 208
      • Comments: 2452
      • Overall: 2660

      I cast my bullets and dry them. Then I press on the gas checks. Then I lube them with Imperial sizing wax. Then I run them through the push through sizer. Finally I either dip lube them, or use one of the lube sizers to install lube in the grooves, but I take no care to remove the Imperial wax residue. I have found the Imperial acts as a kind of release agent to keep the lube from sticking to the bullets, and I believe it helps the lube to jettison when the bullet crosses the crown of the barrel. I have many many bullets residing in my berm at this point, and I have found no lube attached to any of them, nor have I witnessed any lube on the 100 yard targets at all.
      I don’t know if this is of interest, but it’s something I’m messing with.

    • #31699
      Menner
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 4
      • Comments: 120
      • Overall: 124
    • #31700
      Menner
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 4
      • Comments: 120
      • Overall: 124

      I have never lubed before sizing
      I gas check size then lube
      Tony

    • #31702
      Chris C
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 12
      • Comments: 157
      • Overall: 169

      Everyone has a different procedure, I guess. I always lube before sizing……….but Tim has gotten me into the habit of the Imperial wax, size, lube and size again…………except I do the Imperial wax sizing step .001″ larger than when I do the lube sizing. I’ve been dip lubing recently and prefer it. (I might not if I owned a lube-sizer) 😉 Guess it’s one of those “whatever floats your boat………..as long as it floats!”

    • #31707
      Reg
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 40
      • Comments: 256
      • Overall: 296

      Hmmm You got me to thinking.

    • #31708
      Goodsteel
      Keymaster
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 208
      • Comments: 2452
      • Overall: 2660

      I couldn’t agree more. Except, if you lube a gas check bullet before or while the GC is being crimped on, hydraulic pressure will force lube under the gas check (easily verified by measuring the squareness of the GC and the length of the projectile).

      I crimp on the GC with only enough lube to center the bullet and let it float towards the path of least resistance in the push through die.

    • #31735
      Reg
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 40
      • Comments: 256
      • Overall: 296

      Are we not talking the effects of centrifugal force ?
      Equil velocity— tighter twist = a higher degree of centrifugal force = more lube purging ? Just asking.

Viewing 26 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 2017 Goodsteel Forum. Designed by Covalent Designs, LLC.