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    • #32443
      Larry Gibson
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      As posted on CBF…..

      I have tested over 50 different combinations of bullets, powders, and charge weights. Most of the loads had groupings from 1.5 inches to 4 inches, at 100 yards. Yesterday I finally found a load that shot sub MOA from this $89 rifle.”

      A picture of a 3 shot sub moa group was included along with load info. After 50+ different combinations he puts 3 shots into sub moa…….impressive……..eh?

      Don’t get me wrong, I’m not really criticizing that guy. I’m just criticizing the concept of accuracy that many erroneously have. The OP is probably going to be real happy until he finds it difficult to reproduce that level of “accuracy” his next time shooting, especially when he tried to move that “group” into the X ring of the bullseye.

      Larry Gibson

    • #32445
      WCM
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      The accuracy standard of a lot of those people is pretty amusing.
      I have shot those rifles ,but never desired to own one other than from a historical standpoint.
      I am limited in time and resources.

      To shoot with my son at 200 to 600 yds is my primary goal.
      So little time left, and I treasure this quality time we have together.

    • #32446
      kens
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      I got a moisin, and am very impressed with its accuracy.
      To get sub MOA with military iron sights I believe is a stretch, but with proper sights, I believe the rifle might do it.
      There is an old saying that the better part of shooting is the sights & trigger. I do believe that.
      And the moisin has better sights & trigger than my own 1903 Springfield.
      Had someone posted that their Springfield shot sub MOA, then likely nobody would have questioned that.
      but for a russian crude such as moisin to shoot good, then that becomes suspect.
      I got both the moisin and Springfield and the moisin will easily out shoot the 1903. yes, my 1903 has a good bore.
      Whether or not that guy can duplicate that feat, I dunno.
      He didn’t say whether he bedded the stock, or installed a proper scope sight,

    • #32447
      Scharfschuetze
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      I was going to ask him if it was repeatable with larger numbers of shots in the group, but Hey! One needs to be diplomatic in the various fora.

      I’ve still got my MN 91/30 sniper Larry. Still have yours?

    • #32449
      WCM
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      The thing I find questionable is various peoples idea of what 100 yds actually is.

      I showed a particular person a tree sitting on the edge of a field and ask them how far they thought it was.
      They said at least 400 yds.

      I have a laser range finder and the tree was 240 yds.

      Unless they are shooting at a standard shooting range or use a range finder, most have no idea.

    • #32450
      Scharfschuetze
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      Unless they are shooting at a standard shooting range or use a range finder, most have no idea.

      Well, even experienced hunters and marksmen have issues with range estimation. Probably why the Army used the milradian formulae for so many years and why we have laser range finders now.

      Judging ranges on the small Central Texas White Tails after hunting large Mule Deer is a challenge and hunters estimating distance to Pronghorns is an exercise in futility for Eastern hunters not used to the wide open spaces. Believe me, I’ve shot over the back of one or two small white tails using my ingrained deer experience with large mule deer in Colorado.

      Still, you have a valid point regarding the reports of accuracy by shooters not using a formal range. Almost all of us will opt for the best when making a report. One reason I always try for 10 shot groups at a know distance when determining a load’s or rifle’s accuracy. We, as experienced shooters, really take three (3) shot groups as only an indicator or often just a freak occurrence.

    • #32459
      WCM
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      When I was younger I use to help my father survey land.
      He would often take a measure of distance and have me step it off and count how many steps I had in 100 ft .

      We would use that prior to the days of laser range finders and get pretty close on distances of 100 yds.

      I love the new range finders and ballistic apps.

      Wish we had them in the old days.

      I also like using two shooters of close to equal skill to test a gun and load.
      I feel like this helps remove human error and gives a better view of the data.

    • #32463
      Larry Gibson
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      Please don’t get me wrong, I was not questioning the MNs accuracy potential. I was questioning the OPs assumption that after 50+ combinations (assuming that many “groups) and he all of a sudden puts the 1st three shots into a sub moa “group” that such equates to “sub moa accuracy”.

      I have a very nice Finn M39 (Sako built) having an original Weaver T-6 scope (6X is the max allowed in CBA competition) that is very accurate with cast bullets. I won the 2016 Arizona CBA Military Rifle state match with it and also won 2 other matches. I will be shooting it in this months match also. I have shot many a 10 shot group at 100 and 200 yards) with it and many 10 shot strings for score at 100 and 200 yards on NRA 600 yard reduced targets. Numerous times the 1st 3 or even 5 shots have been sub moa and I even cam real close (9 shots) to a 10 shot sub moa group. However, those are anomalies as the actual cone of fire over the long haul with my match load has been right at 1.5 moa. While the Finns came very close to making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear it is still a milsurp rifle and di not expect it to shoot alongside my M70 match rifle or Dawn (my 30×60 XCB).

      Larry Gibson

    • #32464
      Larry Gibson
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      Dave

      Yes I still have the M91/30 sniper. Haven’t done anything with cast in it for some years. I have it zeroed for the match load using the Sierra 174 MK over H4895. When you come down this way again we’ll go out to one of my 1000+ yard ranges and shoot it at iron Ivan. Might bring yours down also? Uh, and don’t forget that milsurp .303 you owe me….:rolleyes:

      Larry Gibson

    • #32465
      WCM
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      I have a friend who thinks the MN’s are gloriously accurate.
      I will have to invite him out sometime and let him show me how it is done.

    • #32468
      Larry Gibson
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      Like a lot of milsurps there are many MNs that are gloriously inaccurate……:( I have a T53 that has such a sewer pipe barrel it will barely keep 3 key holing milsurp bullets out of 5 shots on an E target at 50 yards. Probably why the previous own barely hit me with it. Even with reloads with Sierra 311 or Hornady .312s it barely holds an E target at 50 yards. However with GB 314291s at .316 it holds about 4″ at 100 yards……it resides nicely above the bar in my man cave……:)

      Pictured with the T53 is a M91/28 which the previous owner didn’t need anymore. It’s bore while dark still shoots .311 and .312 jacketed bullet reloads quite well….2 1/2 to 3 moa. I’ve shot a few cast through it but never bothered developing a good cast load for it.

      Larry Gibson

    • #32469
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      The ones I have shot were one my son owned,and the other was owned by a friend I grew up with that was a history teacher and obviously wanted the gun for it’s historic value.

      Neither gun was impressive, but I could also see several things about the guns that I could fix and make them better shooters.

      The guns just aren’t worth my time, because they don’t interest me.

      In my younger days I worked with some wildcat cartridges and a great many obsolete cartridges.

      I have narrowed my focus as I have grown older.

      I still have my favorites,but enjoy cartridges that I don’t have to work so hard on to get to shoot well.
      That way I can focus more on shooting and spend more time loading up a hundred rounds of something that I know is going to shoot well.
      I shoot more .308’s and .223’s than anything else.

      Spending time with my son is a top priority of my life right now.
      We have hit a groove with shooting the .308 and .223
      He hasn’t been this excited about shooting since he was a kid.
      I am trying to teach him what I have learned before I am gone.

      Lately I have spent a good bit of time with the .38/55,and that is my own project.

    • #32470
      kens
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      The T53 nagant is a fine trunk gun, it doesn’t matter if it gets banged up, it still delivers the horsepower.
      I have a 39 Finnish that is gloriously accurate.

    • #32471
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      I would love to find an old 788 in .30/30
      Or have a Highwall chambered for that round.

      I once had a 74 Sharps in .30/40 Krag.
      Kind of wish I still had it, but traded it to get an original Win 95 in .405win.
      I still have that one.
      It is a great cast bullet rifle.

    • #32474
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      I understand what Larry is talking about.
      That is why I will probably put a Krieger barrel on my Savage Model 12BVSS.

      It shoots a consistent 3/4 MOA group ,but if I want the 1/2 MOA and want it to be very consistent, I need a better barrel.
      I really like the Savage, but it won’t shoot with my Winchester Model 70 Heavy Varmint.

    • #32478
      Goodsteel
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      There was a time years ago when I shot 3 shot groups. I also spent a lot of time being frustrated that my POI changed every time I went to the range. I made scope adjustments at the beginning of every range session and only called zero good enough when I ran out of ammo. I didn’t realize I was being so foolish. I guess the frontal lobe just wasn’t properly developed enough, and being surrounded by people who were doing the exact same thing didn’t help any.
      Then I changed to 5 shot groups. Even the dumbest hombre can only get kicked in the butt so many times before he looks for the sign on his back!
      I ran with five shot groups for years, but still found a floating POI occasionally.
      Then I reasoned that I was dealing with random events within a cone of fire, so I would work up my loads with 5 shot groups, then shoot twenty into a single POA to determine the cone of fire with that ammunition. Worked pretty well too, except for those frustrating times when three “lucky” five shot groups belied the precision of the load totally. Sucks when you expect to see a 1.5″ group and youve got three 1.2″ 5 shots to back it up, and you get 2.5″ for 20!
      What a waste!!!

      Then I hear Larry preaching ten shots. At first I think “man that’s a lot of waste” but then I realized that catching your problems early in the game saves a LOT of ammo over the long run. No telling how many Blackcat firecrackers I could have bought for what I spent shooting false positives all those years!

      It bugs me when people get defensive when they are advised to shoot 10 shots. I don’t recommend it to put them down or make them feel small. They just don’t realize they are spending more doing it their way than what I am suggesting.
      Been there. Got the facepalm.
      Thanks Larry.

    • #32481
      WCM
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      I imagine a ten shot group with the average MN would look pretty sad.

      There use to be a guy I grew up with that hunted with me some. His name was Jim.
      My dad use to say he would hang his Sunday suit up at 100 yds and let Jim shoot at it.

    • #32482
      Larry Gibson
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      Just shooting for group is also quite a bit different than shooting for score. At the range where I shoot CBA matches (Ben Avery, Phoenix AZ) the local bunch doesn’t allow wind flags for the Military rifle matches. There is nothing down range to see what the wind is doing or to judge it by. Being desert there isn’t even much mirage most of the time. Thus the cast bullets get pushed around quite a bit when you’re trying to shoot accurately with precision at the same time. Here’s what the range looks like.

      Here some 200 yard targets fired for group during a match last summer with my M39 Fin MN. You can see the wind really messes with the groups. The targets are NRA 200/600s.

      There was no sight change between those 2 strings for group. You can see how the “conditions” change rapidly and how seriously they can affect the group size.

    • #32483
      Larry Gibson
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      Here’s the 200 yard for score targets where I was able to adjust for the conditions……….I didn’t think I did that great but it turned out the other shooters were doing worse in the switching wind conditions.

      Here’s the 100 yard targets for score on the NRA 100/600 target.

      For sure trying to squeak the bullets into the 10 and X ring ( accuracy with precision) proves to be more difficult than just shooting for groups (precision only).

      Larry Gibson

    • #32485
      WCM
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      Quite and accomplishment to be able to do that with those rifles and cast bullets.
      I am sure you are in the minority with that ability, skill,and knowledge.

      I have never done any type of precision shooing with cast and doubt I ever will.

      My goals are different,as my time and resources are limited.

      I have a daughter that is very sick and will never get better.
      My wife and I have to take care of her, financially and otherwise.

      The bright spot in my life is my son, not that I don’t love my daughter.
      Taking care of her is very draining ,both emotionally and physically.

      Just getting to spend time with my son and watch him develop as a shooter ,makes my life better.

      I am done as far as being an accomplished shooter.
      My best years are behind me.
      My eyes are gone as far as open sights are concerned.

      My son still has a chance to do it.
      I have watched him develop over the years,and I would say he has the gift of focus that I had years ago.

      Thanks for your post as always.

      Good luck in the future.
      Best Regards,
      WCM

    • #32486
      Goodsteel
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      That’s about how most of them shoot. Its a tough call when somebody comes by the shop and asks me to “sight in” their MN. 12″ groups happen a lot. Still don’t know what to tell them. I explain the cone of fire of the rifle, that I set the sights in the middle of it, and that shots should be limited to 50 yards or less. Often they pay me my fee and walk away with a smile on their face pointing out the one shot that hit bullseye.
      Hey, as long as they’re happy!

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