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    • #25106
      doc1876
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      Tim asked me to share some notes with the forum, so the title is how do you, not tell me how. Done been in that argument.
      It took me a while to compile them.
      This is how I do it.

      Annealing Brass
      Before we start, I must inform you that if this something you wish to do, under no circumstances use a case with a hot primer in it. NO PRIMERS…. they go bang, and this can change the rest of your day to a long wait in the emergency room.
      So we want to reverse the effects of work hardening of our brass cases for reloading. If heat is applied to a work hardened area of brass, the energy of that heat will cause the grain size of the metal to grow. As this happens, the material loses strength (it gets softer) and regains its tolerance for stretching without breaking. Exactly how much and when this happens depends on the material, the temperature applied, and the time that temperature has to act on the metal. For cartridge brass, the transformation is quick, however not so fast as it is uncontrollable, and occurs at approximately 650-700 degrees Fahrenheit. If you heat to a higher temperature, the brass will get even softer, and you most likely will ruin the rest of the case.
      It is critical to understand that we are talking about annealing case necks only. The rest of the case is work hardened during manufacturing and left that way on purpose. It must be strong enough to contain the pressures of firing, and annealing any part of the case except the neck is potentially dangerous. Do not do it. Under no circumstances should you let the case body get anywhere near 700 degrees. I have heard it suggested to dipping case necks in molten lead (which melts very near 700 degrees depending on the alloy). I understand the theory, but I would not suggest it as, Spattering, sticky lead, and the fact that lead is a dangerous poison make this not such a good idea. Torches are by far the most commonly used heat sources for annealing. They’re cheap, relatively easy to use, and do the job well.
      How do you tell how hot the brass is? Use a temperature indicator like Tempilaq. Tempilaq is a special sort of “paint” that is designed to melt at a very specific temperature.. Use some 450 degree Tempilaq on the case body to make sure it does not overheat, and use some 700 degree Tempilaq on the neck to make sure it reaches the required temperature. I watched a video on this, and the instructor stated that he has done thousands of rounds with his bottle, and still has most of it left, so it does go a long way.

      I have been having a good result with a propane torch. After cleaning, as I believe the heat will cause contamination if there is dirt involved, I put the case in a socket attached to a cordless drill, heat to a light blue, and then dump it in water. You can cool it as slowly or as quickly as you like and it won’t matter. Once you see the color changes, you will get used to what you are doing. Bottom of Form
      I am not saying that you have to quench, and I am certainly not saying to NEVER quench. I am saying that the option is yours. I have a background in metallurgy that comes from my father’s teachings, as he was a machine shop and Welding instructor for many years, and I am a certified Machinist, with courses in Practical Metallurgy.
      Practical Metallurgy and materials of industry, fourth edition, by John E Neely Page 157:
      Nonferrous metals
      Annealing of most nonferrous metals consist of heating them to the recrystallization temperatures or grain growth range and cooling them to room temperature, The rate of cooling has no effect on most nonferrous metals such as copper or brass, but quenching them in water is sometimes beneficial. Annealing temperatures and procedures are very critical with some metals such as stainless steels and precipitation hardening nonferrous metals (see chapter 14 Teat treating nonferrous Metals for further information., The phenomenon of grain growth as discussed in chapter 7 s found at a higher temperatures, When a large amount of deformation is required in one operation, large grains are sometimes preferred, although a surface defect called orange peel (figures 10.9a and 10.9b) is sometimes seen on formed metals having large grains, in this case a stress relief anneal could be used, that is recovery growth.

      So annealing brass, in practice, simply involves heating the neck of the case for a few seconds, until it hits the required temperature. That’s it. There are several machines on the market that make that process easier, and look cool, but I don’t have room for one, and the drill and socket method takes no time to set up.
      I know of others that set the cases up, in a pan of water, so that the area they want annealed is exposed above water level, and then heat the tops of the cases. I see the idea of insuring that the rest of the case is not affected, however another case of too much work for me, for pistol cases. Now if I am going to do some long, small caliber rifle cases, I think that this might be just the ticket. No matter which way you go, if you do use water, plan on warm airing or some other way to dry before adding primers and powder.
      I read where someone dumps his brass into a water/citric acid mix. He says that this removes the Tempilaq, scaling, and after tumbling, you can’t even tell that the brass has been annealed. I personally clean all my brass before annealing, as I believe the heat will cause contamination if there is dirt involved.

      As a side bar, I had some blanks that I needed to make, and the mouth of the cases had to be star crimped to contain the powder and wad. I used .303 brit cases cut down, and had to anneal them until the mouth was almost black in order to get them to crimp. As they will never hold a bullet, I did not care, however I am sure they are soft as a baby’s but.

    • #25118
      Harter
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      I’ve tried so many ways . I’ve probably ruined every piece I’ve done . It really depends on what I’m doing,45 Colts get the water pan decapped and tipped ,308 gets gets to stand in the pan with spent primers in, by 57 and 06′ get mostly finger rolled . The WM get the same .
      There is a qualifier in all of this in that brass isn’t all the same ,some is will get a line to the bottom of the shoulder before you hardly can see the mouth change others practically have to have the mouth and half the neck red every 3rd load to get 10 cycles.

    • #25120
      Goodsteel
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      Excellent write up Doc.

      I have a simple way of doing this, and it works for me.
      I hold the brass in my fingers and use a torch to anneal it. One thing I have learned is that this is about consistency and timing. You cannot go by the color. I pick up a piece of brass by the head and twist it in front of the flame while aiming the blue tip at the shoulder, and roughly parallel to it so the heat flows up the neck. I wait to feel the heat in the base with my finger tips (this happens suddenly) and I set the brass on a soft cloth to cool, then repeat.

      Four of these cases are LC. Two are commercial manufacture. All six were treated exactly the same. Can you tell which are not military? This demonstrates why you cannot go by color.

      Here’s a bunch of Federal 308 I did this morning:

    • #25124
      Dick
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      How do I anneal? I use a socket on a cordless drill and spin it in MAPP (the fake new stuff, lol) gas until the tempilaq turns for the first couple pieces until I get the timing down using a timer with a foot pedal.

      Dumping from the heat into a citric acid/water bath removes any/all scaling and tempilaq residue. It also removes the coloring of the anneal. Haven’t figure out why though. Anywho, if you dump in the citric acid bath after annealing then you can’t even tell they were annealed after you tumble them in corn cob.

      As for temperatures, I got better accuracy and more consistent neck tension using temperatures above 700-750 degrees. In my not so scientific vise grip testing, I didn’t get brass to be “Dead soft” until a good bit beyond 750 degrees according to my different tempilaqs.

    • #25151
      VANN
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      I use the same method as Goodsteel, by holding the case in your fingers it is impossible to overheat the head of the case.

    • #25154
      Wright Arms
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      I anneal in a dark room by color. The dark room removes the error caused by ambient lighting, or so it seems to me. If other methods work well for others, that’s all well and good. But this is MY method.

    • #25159
      Artful
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      Goodsteel;n3436 wrote: Excellent write up Doc.

      Four of these cases are LC. Two are commercial manufacture. All six were treated exactly the same. Can you tell which are not military? This demonstrates why you cannot go by color.

      Yes, I agree a very nice write up Doc.

      as for your guessing game Tim,
      the bottom one and
      the third from the top are the commercial cases (just my guess)

      I just use electric drill with a adaptor to put a deep well socket just large enough to hold the
      case and then put it into a torch flame and do my count – tip the drill to drop it into water. DONE
      I do segregate my brass and the first couple are done and tested in the press to see if I feel
      that the anneal was correct (compare to unannealed case) and that count used on the rest of
      the batch

    • #25168
      bullet maker
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      I use the Guirad machine. With some experiance, it works great. I like that once up and running, I can do something else while keeping an eye on the machine. Good notes help alot.

    • #25202
      lead-1
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      I have not had much luck with annealing, I ruined some 223 brass trying, so I started practicing on scrap in several calibers to get a feel for it. I’m getting a little better at it don’t quite have it yet.

      So here is a question, do you all anneal before sizing and trimming or after?

    • #25207
      Goodsteel
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      lead-1;n3536 wrote: I have not had much luck with annealing, I ruined some 223 brass trying, so I started practicing on scrap in several calibers to get a feel for it. I’m getting a little better at it don’t quite have it yet.

      So here is a question, do you all anneal before sizing and trimming or after?

      I anneal after sizing but before trimming.

    • #25237
      Anonymous
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      I anneal standing in front of the laundry machine with a bucket of cold water and a torch on low facing 45deg or so away from me
      (Landry machine because you can lean against it / it is the right height/ it is steel and if you drop a pc of brass / and water for the bucket is right there)

      I am doing 223/ 308/ 300bo

      I hold the brass and turn it with my bare fingers
      When it gets hot I drop it in the water and repeat

      after brass gets done / drained and Tumbled it gets final size and loaded

      I anneal before fL or neck sizing

      for 300BO i first size the 223 brass–> without the inside stem (without cutting) then anneal
      and after trim to length do a 2nd full pass with the sizing die to pop primer and size the inside on the neck

    • #25239
      Smoke4320
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      Made one of these for less than $100.00 . eliminated the ugly washer stack with all thread rod, double nuts and washers on each connection

      Works very well .. set rheostats to approx. 8 seconds per rev and it runs on its own

      http://68forums.com/forums/showthrea…-list-included

    • #25451
      doc1876
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      OK, I have a couple of projects to get off of the list, and might try making one. Thanks for the link

    • #25885
      dragon813gt
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      I bought an Annealeez. It was priced right for me. A lot less than a Benchsource or other table type annealer. Also saved me a lot of time building one. And at the moment my time is worth more than a couple hundred bucks.

      Here it is annealing some 300 BLK Brass, not trimmed yet.

      Finished product.

      As you can see the results are all a little different. I was adjusting the timing and you can see how it moved down the case. One nice thing about this unit is repeatability. The wheels are run off a DC motor speed controller. You need a multimeter to test the output voltage But once you have the timing set you read the voltage and you have your setpoint for future use. I had an issue w/ the potentiometer(would speed up randomly) but the speed controllers are cheap so I bought two new ones.

      I did have an issue w/ the cases sticking to the lower wheel after an extended run. But this will only be an issue w/ the short wheel. You can only angle the flame so close the body of the annealer. W/ the other two wheels the case neck is far enough way from the wheel to not be an issue. My 300 BLK is a bolt action so I won’t be losing any brass. I don’t think I will have to make it very often.

      There were a few little quirks. Like the flame pulling back. I though it was the partial propane tank I was using. Swapped it out for a new one and it did the same thing. The results didn’t change. But when the flame pulls back 1/4″ it’s noticeable. For the price I can live w/ some quirks and shortcomings.

    • #28811
      slim1836
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      Smoke4320;n3581 wrote: Made one of these for less than $100.00 . eliminated the ugly washer stack with all thread rod, double nuts and washers on each connection

      Works very well .. set rheostats to approx. 8 seconds per rev and it runs on its own

      http://68forums.com/forums/showthrea…-list-included

      I made the same setup, works fine by me.

      Slim

    • #31691
      Capt45
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      How do you know when you’ve ruined a case?

    • #31692
      Harter
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      When you shoot a standard pressure load in a 30-40 or 303 brass 410 and you get a perfect finger print of the chamber all over the case .

    • #31701
      lar45
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      I hold the base of the case between a finger and thumb, then turn the neck in a propane torch flame until it get’s hot, then drop them into a bucket of water. You can’t get it too hot that way.

    • #31705
      Smithbrosarchery
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      Turned a holder that fits in a 1/2″ drill chuck.Corded drill motor goes in swivel bench vise,clamp on bench is the limit for swiveling vise.Propane bottle at the limit of travel path.Turn off a few lights,do the count,pluck case out with gloved hand,drop in water.Strain cases and hit’m with shop air nozzle.

    • #31715
      Goodsteel
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      I don’t know about that Glenn. Some people may have a very high threshold for pain. LOL!

    • #31809
      Chris C
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      I use an Anneal-Rite. http://www.cartridgeanneal.com/ It’s pretty basic and you have to count the time the case is in the flame. Can’t say I love it, but it’s better than nothing. I use it in a darkened room………light enough to do my work, but dark enough to see the color of the case as it heats. Wish I had an Anneal-Eze or equivalent. Dang it’s the pits bein’ poor! 😉

    • #31811
      slim1836
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      http://68forums.com/forums/showthrea…-list-included

      This is like the one I made, works well and cost under $100.

      Slim

    • #32630
      Robroy
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      I did some 35rem standing up in a pan of water and got good results. I think in the future I’ll hold them between my temper savers (fingers)

    • #32679
      WCM
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      lar45;n11923 wrote: I hold the base of the case between a finger and thumb, then turn the neck in a propane torch flame until it get’s hot, then drop them into a bucket of water. You can’t get it too hot that way.

      This is what I do except I just drop the cases in an empty pan.I am not sure if the water is necessary.

    • #32781
      doc1876
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      I am sorry for the long absence here, however, if you get them dark while heating, you have most likely ruined them. While I have not had this happen, I would guess that they will not crimp on the bullet.

    • #45905
      Doc Highwall
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      I have a Benchsource and used the Tempilaq. Now I have gone hi-tech and purchased a

      AMP or Annealing Made Perfect, this is the only way I am going to anneal from now on.

      Here is a link to their site, do yourself a favor and read what they found out about annealing and case neck hardness.

      https://www.ampannealing.com/index/

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