This topic contains 13 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Harter 1 year, 1 month ago.

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  • #68826
     Harter 
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    So I said to myself ,”self , why do we have to drive light for caliber bullets with crap BCs or launch artilery shells to get a decent BC ?”
    I immediately slapped myself because I’ve done this before but without the nose length restrictions of the 1895G .

    Accurate has this ;
    http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-435Z-D.png

    I borrowed this from Barnes and added a crimp groove and rebated the BT for a Pope style long gas check shank/rebated BT . Now I figure with a little math that the copper bullet at 300 gr as an exact duplicate in lead is 384 gr . I moved the nose flat out to th Barnes total length i figure that makes it over 400 ,425-450 would make me pretty happy .

    No interest no suggestions ……. nothing . So my very expirienced friends is mine so far gone that theres no hope to make it a staple or should i just spring for the accurate or a mountain ?

  • #68827
     Jniedbalski 
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    Nice looking bullet.

  • #68828
     Jniedbalski 
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    Hope very soon I get a 45/70 to play with

  • #68832
     Goodsteel 
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    There’s nothing glaringly wrong with your bullet design. However, the 45-70 is not inherently precise cartridge no matter how precisely you load it. I was quite sure that I could make it shoot straighter than ever if I cracked my knuckles and gave it some MBT love (which I did for 3+ years and over 6000 rounds).

    I made two custom 45-70 bullets myself with all care given to the lessons learned in the XCB project. I also fired over 6000 shots, testing ten shot groups side by side. 12 different powders, 12 different bullets, 7 different rifles, cast bullets only and smokeless powder only.

    I found out what many already knew: The 45-70 and it’s brothers are straight walled cartridges that have no ability to create back pressure to make the powder burn to it’s most consistent potential. It’s a big pistol cartridge. Every single shot lets the pressure off too quickly and consistent burn is impossible. Couple that with the fact that cast bullets of this size are too weak to support their own bulk at these acceleration rates and you have some basic pillars of precision that are compromised by the nature of the design itself.

    Now before you go screaming at me that this is all total bunk, let me say a few things right up front:

    First, my testing was limited to cast bullets with smokeless powder exclusively. No jacketed bullets and no black powder (both of which can have a very positive effect on this more or less).

    Second, I expected three ten shot groups in a row to deliver similar results before I would accept it as valid. The 45-70 in the scenario I mentioned has shown a remarkable propensity for giving almost satisfactory results with one group, and total disappointment with the next. Since I actually intend to hit what I’m shooting at every time rather than posting an impressive one time group, I set up my requirements accordingly.

    Thirdly, I don’t call fliers unless I knew they were going wild when the trigger broke (which is a rare occurrence). There is a lot of excellent data that was thrown out by the shooter because it came in the form of a group the shooter was not happy with, which is a crying shame in my opinion and explains why there is so much misinformation floating out there.

    My testing of this cartridge indicated that group sizes of less than 2MOA are rare and unrepeatable, however, I also discovered that nearly ANY 45-70 caliber rifle will shoot very similar groups to any other rifle of the same caliber regardless of barrel length or quality. (the Marlin 1895’s shot the exact same average group as the 1885 Highwall, and the 1886 Browning, but at no time was a rifle tested that could deliver less than 2MOA in three successive 10 shot groups.

    Now, many people will site the Sandy Hook trials of the Springfield 1873 trapdoor rifle in 1879 in which Mr. R.T. Hare used three different rifles with milspec ammunition to hit a bullseye at 2500 yards (impressive to say the very least). However, few will quantify those results. If you consider the bullseye was 72″ across, and do the math, that’s well within the precision of black powder cartridges (6′ at 2500 yards is equal to 2.75MOA). Of course, considering wind and the extreme distance itself, these shots are no less impressive but that’s totally on the SHOOTER and not the equipment. The equipment was functioning well within it’s parameters.

    There are few surprises with this cartridge. It’s greatest detriment is also it’s greatest strength, and after working with it for several years, I’ve concluded that its an interesting cartridge to play with from a historical standpoint, but also that it has been marginalized in almost every way by wave after wave of advancements in cartridge and propellant design.

    The biggest tragedy of the cartridge is that I do believe that a propellant could be made that would sustain it’s own burn consistency without help from a shoulder (this has been done very effectively on 22LR propellants) but since it’s a cartridge that time forgot, and no one really expects it to perform sub MOA precision in the first place (especially not with cast bullets), no such propellant is likely to be forthcoming. Most people figure it’s a short range brush gun, which is sad, but that sentiment is what keeps it on the bottom of the barrel picking up the crumbs dropped from modern high performance propellants.

    Regardless, it’s a fascinating pursuit that will teach you a lot if you keep your eyes open and let the data be what it will be.

  • #68833
     Jniedbalski 
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    Very good write up goodsteel.

  • #68834
     Rattlesnake Charlie 
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    Are any of the Sharps bottleneck cartridges any better in the “inherent accuracy” arena?

  • #68835
     Harter 
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    Fortunately you and I have discussed this before . It is true that neither the platform nor cartridge is a definitive tack driver , that’s why I have an 222 for little bitty groups and a 264WM if I need to reach out past my skills and get there in a hurry and of course an old 06′ or 2 for all purpose critter whacking .

    It is a shame that the 45-70 is just another brush gun these days , but I blame the lever gun for that .

    Most if not all rifles will shoot better when cast is slowed down , I’ve seen this show up in this rifle a little bit with just 200 down range I haven’t explored all of the avenues . I did check out “how to get the snot and fillings knocked loose blvd” I didn’t leave anything there I need to go back and look at again .

    While not a conscious decision I did find that when treated like a 38 Special or 45 Colts that it responded well …..see reference to a large burro pistol cartridge .
    So the low drag 45 exploration is really about low speed aerodynamics not shrinking groups .
    The NOE clone 535 gr copy of the 458193 shoots plenty flat at as as little as 1100fps it’s almost a no hold over 200 yd rifle . Although the 535 was a single loaded afair , far too long to feed and once the bolt closed there was no ejection until the bullet went down range . Most of the short nosed bullets follow the 50% meplat punch a full diameter hole who cares if it doesn’t move metal it’s a half inch hole .

    So the idea in this is to take advantage of the copper bullet shape , at 300 grains it sports a whopping .291 BC . Straight conversion to lead it moves up to 384 gr + the cavity fill . So 450 gr isn’t a real reach and keep the shape with just a little length . By increasing the weight and extending the gas check shank making it a rebated BT the BC should go up into the high .300s maybe even break .400 . By treating it like a 500 gr pistol with a snort of Unique I ought to be able to get it on up to 1050fps without too much damage . A .400 BC on a 450gr should let it carry plenty of energy for what ever it happens to run in to . If NOE will cut it , which doesn’t look real good at the moment , in an RG with a moderate HP cast from a 1-20 or so should resolve the energy transfer and inside 200 yd . Putting a bullet in the boiler room shouldn’t be a big deal , if it looks like it over 125 yd hold the spine instead of the shoulder .

    I also recognize the limits of a subsonic sledgehammer . My intention is to get there with less loss without starting with more . With this in mind a 450 gr TD load is only 11-1250 fps so sacrificing 100 fps isn’t a big deal especially with a 100 yd retained speed of 900 fps with twice the weight of the other 900 fps 45s .

  • #68836
     Harter 
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    My hopes for this
    Cartridge: 45-70

    Bullet weight, grains: 450.0

    Bullet speed, f/s: 1050.0
    at temperature, °F: 59.0
    Temperature coefficient, %: 2.5

    Ballistic coefficient (G1): 0.4

    Rifle: Raptor 2

    Zero Distance, yards: 150.0

    Scope height, inches: 0.8

    Vert. click, inch@100yards: 0.262 (0.25 MOA)

    Hor. click, inch@100yards: 0.262 (0.25 MOA)

    Altitude, feet: 300.0

    Temperature, °F: 58.0

    Pressure, inHg: 29.21

    Wind speed, mph: 10.0

    Wind direction, degrees: 90.0

    yards Speed Energy. Time of Flight Vert. Hor.
    0 1049.9 1101.3 0.00 0.78 0.0
    25 1035.1 1070.6 0.08 -4.57 0.1
    50.0 1022.0 1043.6 0.15 -7.91 0.4
    75.0. 1009.5 1018.3 0.22 -9.17 0.7
    100.0. 997.7 994.6. 0.30 -8.27 1.3
    125.0 986.2 971.8 0.37 -5.28 2.0
    150.0 975.4. 950.6 0.45 0.00 2.8
    175.0. 964.9 930.3 0.53 7.60 3.9
    200.0 955.1 911.4 0.61 17.52 5.1
    225.0 945.2 892.7 0.69 29.88 6.5
    250.0 936.0 875.4 0.77 44.65 8.0
    275.0 926.8 858.3 0.85 61.89 9.6
    300.0 918.0 842.0 0.93 81.61 11.3

    Looking at this I should bump it up to 475-500 .

  • #68837
     Rattlesnake Charlie 
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    Well, which available bullet is the best choice?

    I am looking at shooting in two different rifles, a Marlin 1895 Cowboy and a C Sharps. I know longer ones will not function in the Marlin.

    Molds I have on hand:  (Sorry for the poor formatting, it whipped me.)

    Manufacturer      Model                               Weight             Style
    Lyman                457122BV                          290                   RFN-HP
    MiHec                 462 HMR                           337/326/314  RFN-HP
    Ohaus                45-300-FN                          300                   RFN
    RCBS                 45-325-FN-U                      325                   RFN
    Ranch Dog         Custom TLC460-350-RF      350           FN
    Lee                     459-405-HB                      405                    RFN HB
    Lee                     457-405-F                         405                    RFN
    RCBS                 45-405-FN                          405                   RFN
    Ranch Dog         460 425                             425                   FN
    Rapine                #460 450                            450                FN
    Saeco                645  63D                             480                 Semi-Point

  • #68838
     Harter 
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    Depends on the goal I guess .
    I have ;
    MP 462-425 @ 417
    Lyman 458193 @ 415
    Lee 458-340 @ 350
    NOE 460-543 @ 535 , copy of the 458132 AJN3
    MM 453-350 @ 350 , I paper patched it.
    454613 @ 385 , it’s a HB Minie paper patched it’s a nice plinker.
    465451 …… haven’t cast it yet it might be for the Chessipot .
    I had a 458-405 HB this didn’t work out at all .

    In the 1895 the 458193 was instant gratification fast , slow , its just too not slippery .
    The 543 NOE is slipperier and shoots well enough but even sized and patched there’s too much nose length and I worry about the band slam chamber ring .
    The MP took a little longer the solid is a lever gun mid and up bullet . The HB is 380 gr and takes a full top TD and a little bit to run well .

  • #68846
     Rattlesnake Charlie 
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    What was the .45-70 bullet design used for the end of the decimation of the great buffalo herds?

    From my reading it appears that the .45 cal rifles predominated at the end of the slaughter. The .50’s, .40’s, and .44’s did not make up a significant percentage of rifles in use.

    FWIW, I believe that a significant number fell to the .50-70 in the early part of the slaughter. If anyone has any numbers on kills per caliber, I’d like to have that data.

  • #68847
     Harter 
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    I guess I’ll just make do with what I have then . The Postell ish 535 , 2@ 415ish and 2 at 350 . Probably plenty for anything in AR short of a zoo break out and placed in Jumbo’s sinuses , eye , ear or neck it’ll probably getter’ done there too .

  • #68849
     Goodsteel 
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    Everybody brings up the great buffalo slaughter in favor of, and the lever action in opposition to this cartridge. It’s either a long range tackdriver, or a short range brush gun, little more precise than a claymore mine.

    I say it’s in between. Smack dab in between. That confounds people who can’t enjoy anything if a generality cannot be made about it, and it doubly confounds those who figure something extreme must happen for all that recoil and buffalo kills. And yet, I repeat myself: It’s IN BETWEEN.

    The 45-70’s “inbetweenness” is exactly what makes it such a wonderful cartridge.

    It is not a tack driver. Like Charlie said, the claims of buffalo herds being wiped out by this single cartridge is a romantic assumption and not fact. Sounds good to say it, but it’s not totally true. First of all, there were many cartridges used to slaughter the buffalo, and second (let cognitive thought rein supreme for just a moment…..) it was a SLAUGHTER. Not a target match. They killed those animals with anything they could, and they took crazy shots all the time because a hit was a hit, and they didn’t give two cents whether it was a good one or not as long as the buffalo died eventually. If the buff went down, then it was celebrated, but if it was just wounded, it was either shrugged off or counted as a hit anyway, and I seriously doubt anybody gave a second thought to the thousands of missed shots. Also, consider, as I said above, that the 45-70 cartridge is a 2MOA proposition 99.999% of the time (regardless of rifle and load). Given the angular expansion of 2MOA and the 2 foot diameter kill zone of an American bison, it’s not hard to see that all of this lines right up without the need for the 45-70 to do anything other than what I stated above.

    It’s more than a “brush gun”. With a 2MOA rifle that is able to be 2MOA with the same load from many different rifles (including the lever action), this cartridge is easily useful at extended ranges of 500 yards on deer (again, 2MOA vs. a 10″ kill zone on the American Whitetail=turn the crank and out comes a positive answer). All the shooter needs to do is know wind, and know how to set his sights for elevation. 2+2=4 every single time. Besides that, I absolutely ABHOR the term “brush gun”. Anybody who thinks 45-70 bullets are not deflected just as easily by brush as 30-06 bullets is sipping on bad information. Anyone who walks into the woods intending to blast away at the brush and hope a deer rolls out needs to be educated with a fat lip IMHO.

    Regardless, this cartridge is not extreme by any metric except it’s ability to live in the middle and always do the same thing. It’s been doing the same thing and performing like it does for the past 140 years and it’s been called everything from a tack driver to a gun that is useless past 50 paces, but there it sits, stalwart in it’s resolve to spit out the same results regarless of “XCB this”, or “Levereveolution that”. Many have approached it seeking to make it something it’s not, and they found that no matter what specific task they asked of it, there was always a modern cartridge that did the job better, but some find out that it’s awful dam hard to find a cartridge that stands in the middle and has enough capability for as many tasks as the venerable 45-70. It’s not extreme. It’s not elite. It’s the Chevy truck of the cartridge world, and that’s what makes it so fun to own and shoot in my opinion.

  • #68854
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    I just wanted to put the diesel after cooler radiator on the 73′ 4V wire the secondaries and slap a mechanical advance Unilight in it . Maybe some clear coat and keep the rat rod look . If I can bump that old 327 up to 8.5:1 and get 18-19 empty on the highway instead of 15 I’m a happy camper .

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