- August 18, 2017 at 3:25 pm #46630
I know that some years ago, it cost more to sporterise a military mauser, than to go out and buy a Remchester off the shelf. when you add the cost of a sporter barrel, drill/tap, bend bolt, new stock, new safety, etc., etc.
Well, I was just at a new Dicks’ sporting goods, the kind of store with back packs, tee shirts, golf clubs, and a gun counter in the back. All the major makers have a high power rifle under $400. Savage axis @ 279.
The Rem. 700 no longer has a metal floorplate. Nobody else either. No glossy finish at all. No wood, all plastic.
Me and my little Woodland Carbine (95 mauser) are into some money well over $400 by now, and I still cant fire a shot.
However, I got to thinking, when looking at the plastic 700;
‘What would it cost to get a FACTORY rifle, with a barrel equal to my Shilen, with true ‘bottom metal’, with GOOD SOLID USEABLE iron sights, with a stock as good as Richards’ fancy, (rosewood tip), blueprinted & bedded action & floated barrel, Timney trigger, gloss blue, (and a safety that really works)??’
Does Remchester even sell these things anymore??
BTW, I just found out that really good iron sights cost as much as a mediocre scope + base + rings.
- August 18, 2017 at 7:09 pm #46636skeettxParticipant
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Yes, hand labor is expensive in USA
But the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I really enjoy my Martini Cadet in 17 Ackley Bee
made by P.O. Ackley himself, what joy, what joy
- August 18, 2017 at 10:51 pm #46638
CZ makes a nice little rifle in a variety of calibers. http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-550-fs-6-5-x-55-adj-5-rd-fixed-mag/
I have a CZ527 in .223 with the single set trigger and really like it. What I would like to do is to take some of my earlier cheap rifles to a gun show and see if I can liquidate them and roll that into a new CZ in a larger caliber(30-06 or similar)
- August 19, 2017 at 6:19 am #46641
I am not referring to the hand labor in it, but rather, the amount of real steel, real wood, real sights, real figure in wood, all the real tangibles
Does Rem, Win, and our own major makers even offer this??
if so at what cost?
- August 19, 2017 at 6:39 am #46642GhostHawkParticipant
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If you have to ask you can’t afford it.
Everything appears to be getting pushed into mass market. So you have AR’s, AK’s, a few like Ruger’s new precision rifle. If I was starting over now I think I would be looking hard at CVA single shots.
I like the looks of the new Henry Single Shots as well, but I wonder about barrel quality.
I suspect you won’t find what you listed without spending near 2k for it. Before glass and extra’s. And it may need work yet to get it to shoot to the level you want. Remington sells the 700 CDL for 1180$ but how much more would you have to spend to put it in a decent stock with good finish, get rid of the plastic?
I know I will never buy one at that price.
I used to be a big time Remington Fanboi, but they started losing me way back in the 90’s and nothing I have seen in the last 2 decades has convinced me they learned their lesson.
Just my opinion of course, YMMV.
- August 19, 2017 at 7:09 am #46643
I clicked around for the CDL version of 700, it is still saten, not gloss, and no sights whatsoever. it is listed at $1200, and saw it offered at 900. it still needs sights, a gloss finish, and the true metal, bottom metal is yet to be determined.
- August 19, 2017 at 10:25 am #46647
Many years ago, I wanted to see if I could “sporterize” a Mauser. So this is my first attempt.
I started with an 8x57mm Turk something with a hugely long barrel. I cut the barrel back to 22″ and recrowned on my lathe. I chopped the stock off at a slightly negative angle(don’t ask my why, I just thought it would look good at the time). To fill in the groove for the cleaning rod, I chiseled it out square. Then cut a strip out of the fore end that was trimmed off, glued it in place, trimmed and sanded.
For the bolt handle, I cut the base of the handle about half way through, heated and bent it to about the right angle. I welded the gap closed, then ground a profile on the handle to clean it up and clear the scope.
Next I set the action up in the mill vise and drilled and tapped for a one piece Leopold base that I got out of the 2nd hand parts bin at the gun shop. I put in a set of high rings to clear my handle and mounted a Bushnell scope, also from the parts bin.
With the cost of the rifle and 2nd hand scope parts, I’m in to it for under $150. Is it ugly? Yes it is 😉
I tried loading some ammo for it with the Speer 150s and got patterns of around 12″ at 25 yards. Slugging the barrel showed that it was way oversized. If my memory is correct, it was around .328″. I was going to pull the barrel and put another one on, but on old timer on Cast Boolits suggested I try a longer bullet. I switched to the Speer 170s and it will shoot under 1.5″ at 100yds.
This is now my loaner rifle.
- August 19, 2017 at 11:03 am #46648
That’s a cool build, but not really to the subject of my original post. I’m not looking to ‘how cheap’ can you sporterise a mauser, but rather, how much would it cost to get a factory rifle today, with all the features of a classic mauser.
foreend tip (rosewood, ebony, or similar)
STEEL bottom metal
GOOD sights installed (not the atypical sliding ramp & bead)
blueprinted action ( or similar quality)
gloss blue, (not bead blasted whatever)
I am not even including the man hours to build a custom mauser, but ONLY the tangible parts. all included.
What I am seeing today, is that the price only STARTS at $1000 to find anything with real bottom metal, not to mention real wood, not to mention fore end tip, etc., etc.
- August 19, 2017 at 4:04 pm #46649
I see a very functional rifle at a very reasonable cost. You did good. I think it is both handsome and rugged, ready for anything.
Some day, someone will bring a big buck into camp having used this rifle. They will have the same type of satisfaction of when I outshot the guys with $2K+ trap guns with my Mossberg 835 that still had mud on it from the last goose hunt.
- August 19, 2017 at 5:43 pm #46650
While they are not mass produced but more of a semi custom affair, the likes of Dakota, Kimber, Cooper, Montana are like what you want. Those are all in the $3000 to $6000 range.
I don’t know if any of the big makers even produce such rifles anymore.
- August 19, 2017 at 7:10 pm #46652
you are getting close to the gist of my original post. I was looking for others that think in a similar mindset on this.
Back some 30 years ago, you could sporterise a mauser for ,say, $450, or buy a M70/M700 off the shelf for the same $450. And at that time you get all the tangible things I mentioned above. (apples to apples)
Now today, it cost ,say, $800 to sporterise said mauser, but you can buy M700 for the same $450, HOWEVER, you get a plastic gun with plastic magazine, and a safety that doesnt work.
BUT, if you go ahead and sporterise said mauser for today’s $800, you cannot compare it to today’s M70/M700. you must (apples to apples) compare it to Dakota, Kimber, Montana. And yes, they are $3000-6000.
If you were going to sporterise a mauser today and compare it (apples to apples) to M70/M700/Axis then you would have to install a plastic floorplate, plastic trigger guard, plastic stock, then sandblast it.
- August 19, 2017 at 9:20 pm #46653
Plastic floorplate, plastic trigger guard, plastic stock, then sandblast it.
The Mauser Glen came up with has way more dignity than that. I’ve seen some really chopped up ones that held their chin high, and shot just fine.
- August 19, 2017 at 9:52 pm #46655
Yeah, but Rattlesnake, I’m talking about a mauser dressed all the way up. more than the rifle Glenn posted, I mean a new sporter barrel, new stock, and all the rest.
I mean a mauser that 30 years ago we compared to the M70 of the day, or the M700.
Today, can we compare it to the M700 of TODAY? that would be the plastic bottom and sandblast, is it not???
- August 19, 2017 at 10:15 pm #46656
“If you were going to sporterise a mauser today and compare it (apples to apples) to M70/M700/Axis then you would have to install a plastic floorplate, plastic trigger guard, plastic stock, then sandblast it.”
I have sported several Model 98’s over the years. I have learned how to do all of the work myself. Why? Because I like the look but more so the functionality of my customs. They are made to take afield and hunt/kill game in a most efficient manner, given my style of hunting. They all carry, shoulder, point, and fire fast and accurate. While Mr. 338 Lapua Mag w/ 6×20 50mm scope is dialing in distance, elevation, windage while finding a suitable fencepost to lay over to steady a 16# rifle I have already made my way to the deceased animal and started processing!
Most of what you see by remchester are what actually sells because of the most common way of hunting these days. Watch the outdoor channel and you will see what I mean. Also take note of the rifles they use and promote.
I am a beautiful wood/blued steel type of guy!! I love iron sights even though my eyes are getting to where I am not too effective with them any more. I also believe that a shooter using aperture sights looses little to one with a scope. I have accomplished and witnessed some very impressive kills with apertures.
I too would take Glenn’s rifle afield before I would use a remchester!! And use it proudly! I’m curious as to what his other rifles are if that is his “loaner”!!
I mean no disrespect to anyone or their style/equipment. Just stating my way and what I use.
My love affair with the Mod. 98 started many years ago with my grandfathers nicely sported 8mm. Done in the late 50’s complete with a very fancy Fajen stock, recontoured barrel, iron sights, and a Weaver 4x on a 1 pc. mount. It was a classic and I fell in love.
My personal customs are quite a bit more than $800. A quality barrel will run $400+. A stock such as I like will cost $350 to $600. Side swing safety $200. Sights $300. Scope and mounts $500. I count my many hours of labor as free/hobby time. Sad part is there are none of them that would bring $600.
I am kind of surprised Tim hasn’t chimed in here. He would have some very good input to this. While I’m at it I would like to comment on the founder of our site. Do not overlook Tim Malcom and his ability to do very fine custom work!! Want proof? Look at the picture of the inlay at the top of this page!!! That is difficult to accomplish. Take a look at his thread on checkering. That, gentlemen, is fine work! He has many other examples of his abilities and they all shine!
WOW, I haven’t typed that much all at once in quite awhile. Sorry for the long winded post.
- August 19, 2017 at 11:02 pm #46657
I am not by any means demeaning anybody’s rifle, style, nor taste. i am sorry that this thread has gone awry.
I am only proposing that my little small ring mauser project has enlightened me to a bit of buyers remorse.
that is to say that I got over $400 in this project and cannot fire a shot, I got a long way to go.
However, I could buy a Savage axis over the counter for $279. rem 700 for $400.
But, and here is the rub, both of those are plastic guns. Can you equally compare a plastic gun to a M95??
By the time I get all done with my M95 mauser, I will have a all steel gun, walnut stock, GOOD sights, and so on, etc., etc. IF and I say IF, I was to compare a mauser to a axis or a brand new M700, then you would have to introduce plastic bottom to the mauser, and sandblast it.
NOW, I say look at this the OTHER way.
Take a M95 mauser (or m98) and build the sporter barrel, walnut stock, polish it out, blue it, and so on, THEN, you cannot anymore compare it to the axis nor the M700.
at this point you have to compare it (apples to apples) to a Kimber, Cooper, or Montana.
- August 20, 2017 at 9:22 am #46659
I too hope I did not offend anyone with my views and comments. We all have different opinions. I’m glad we can share here. I think part of my leaning towards traditional and old school was being brought up not being able to afford much. I remember my friend bought a Mauser in 8mm, then we sawed the wood off with a hand cable saw from Herters. Hey, we were kids, and used what we had. That rifle shot just fine as many prairie dogs attested to. I also remember eyeing the Remington 600 when it came out. I love fine wood, but have more synthetic in the gun case. I have plastic pistols right next to a Colt clone in .45 Colt.
Posting on this site is as close as we can get to sitting around a campfire somewhere together.
Looking forward to more good posts and ideas.
- August 20, 2017 at 9:59 am #46661
OK, I finally found it, the original M700, the one that could be bought for about $450 thirty years ago; the one that would cost a mauser build also about the same 450, at the same time and era. At that time you could dump 450 into a reworked mauser, or, just buy a brand name M700 for same money.
Today, it may cost $800 or $1k to build the same mauser, but, the same M700 is $3k, and only available from the custom shop. Today, dumping money into a mauser looks more plausible than it did back in 1985.
- August 20, 2017 at 12:58 pm #46664HarterParticipant
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I have a not completely unattractive 358 Win built on a $25 action with “found in the attic” 197? stock , with a cut rethreaded take off AB barrel . Total honesty the inside the bow magazine release bottom metal was the most expensive part of the build . It will shoot quarters as long as the nut behind the bench and trigger does what it’s supposed to .
Armed with that I’ve seen some very attractive 700BDLs and 700BDL classics on the racks in Reno . They are a lacking compared to Dad’s 1972 example . He gave $117 as I recall the story . Replacement of that rifle , it’s satin blue as I recall, is around $1200 and another $3-500 for the scope . They are a shadow of what they were . Sure the finish is there but the quality of the important parts isn’t there .
It costs about $400 plus the action , stock , barrel trigger and finish enhancements .
If you want more polish it costs more . Add sights and goodies the price goes up .
I have a 197? FN 98 in 264WM , nice stock , a better than satin finish , adjustable trigger , thumb slide safety , Leopold base 3-9×50 range finder scope (an old steel Weaver V9) , steel Williams full adjustable rear with a hooded front ramp , and an unknown rear flip up peep attached to the Louie base . It shoots under an inch with a 140 gr jacket at 2900 fps . Yes it could be juiced up to 3400 but I hit this load and don’t need more .
Gave $400 for it unfired about 3 yr ago . The $40-50/20 may have something to do with its unfired status .
I wouldn’t get much of new production rifle for that . OTD on an AXIS is $300 on sale with a hit n miss Simons slapped on .
There’s no contest in my mind .
Build if you want grace , beauty and little groups .
Buy if you can live with 2 .
A Savage is not a sexy gun , in use however I’ve found that once fitted it’s a lot of little groups for the money and they are generally graceful in use even if they are ugly .
- August 20, 2017 at 1:56 pm #46665
I just got back from local gun show. I saw 1 example of a Win M70, used, one of the last conneticutt guns, classic M70, for $700.
anything else, used, with all wood and all metal, was $1k and up. (Bolt action)
- August 20, 2017 at 6:38 pm #46669uber7mmParticipant
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I converted a Mauser twenty years ago. This project took about 3 months to complete and at the end I was about $700 lighter. There are lots of things to think out. And in my case, several gotchas along the way. I didn’t realize the total cost of the total package prior to starting this project, but I wouldn’t have gone with a factory rifle in a standard chambering. To obtain an accurate rifle in a cartridge chambering of my choice, conversion was the better option. Moreover, I enjoyed the process and the learning experience.
I think you have to look at your Mauser conversion as a project or labor of love. You’re not going to find a 35 Remington in a small ring Mauser with a brand new barrel at every gun shop.
- August 20, 2017 at 6:43 pm #46670
I didn’t mean to derail the topic with my budget rifle. I just threw it out there as the total opposite of what you are going to build. I’m rather anxious to see the end of your project. So please take pics along the way and at the end. It sounds like a very worthy project.
- August 20, 2017 at 7:06 pm #46672
Having a one-of-a-kind rifle usually comes with bragging rights. You can’t buy those over the shelf.
- August 20, 2017 at 7:11 pm #46673
Part of this is the idea that 20 years ago, all the Remchesters were all wood and all metal. And the remchester is what we had to compare a custom mauser to. Today, the remchester is plastic and totally looks and feels different from the mauser. you can buy a savage axis for the cost of a shilen barrel by itself.
True, my little project is adding up more than I orginally thought, but, I keep adding in little custom bits along the way. I didnt intend from beginning to get the new stock, but the metal started looking good and it made sense to upgrade the stock. I searched for a very long time before I settled on the XS sights, and happy with the sight in my hand, it looks good. then I just had to have a patridge brass front, and I had to have a banded front ramp, and a banded sling swivel.
This thing started with the Shilen barrel on clearance sale at Midway. $189 for a barrel I thought I was gonna be done, but no, it just kept growing and morphing into another thing altogether. I was going to be happy with a Boyds stock for $129. Then that morphed into a Richards for $20 more, and upgrade THAT wood for only $20 more, then get the rosewood tip for only $20 more, and get the sling swivel for only $25 more. It is not seeming to ever stop. I’m into ghost ring sights for nearly $200 alone.
Gosh, I got a scope base, rings, and a spare scope sitting around doing nothing, I could have used that stuff , but, then I would need to alter bolt handle & safety. Rather than alter bolt handle, I went with open sights. But now open sights need drill/tap the barrel. Well gosh, a banded front sight doesnt need drill/tap. The ghost ring on the rear bridge was something I can do on a drill press. Now with banded front and ghost ring rear, it takes on the African Safari style of looking. the old military stock just wasnt gonna get it done. Neither the Boyds. I just had to have the Safari lines stock from Richards. I tried my hand at blueing, and was quite satisfied with the barrelled action, well now aw crap!!! plain wood wasnt gonna cut it with the metal looking good. had to upgrade that too.
When is it gonna stop !!!???
- August 20, 2017 at 8:18 pm #46676HarterParticipant
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When YOU are done with it . It’ll click when it does .
- August 20, 2017 at 8:41 pm #46677
“When is it gonna stop !!!???”
LOL!!! That depends, my friend, on how bad the Mauser bug has bitten you!
I just counted and I have 11 customized Model 98’s ( if I didn’t miss any). I don’t even buy precut stocks anymore but carve them from blanks! I have made my own sights and sight bases. Checker metal and wood. Polish and blue the metal. Convert military bottom metal to quick release. etc, etc, etc.
My story is very similar to yours and as of yet I have not found a place to stop. All of these came about because, like your project, what I could buy off the shelf simply wouldn’t do.
When you get it finished and take it out and take your first game with it, all that work will suddenly be a small price to have paid. And you will have the knowledge that nothing you could have bought off the shelf will compare at any price!
My avatar is a picture of my grandson with the Mexican Mauser in 250 Savage that I built for him. He is kneeling there with his first deer. There is simply no amount of money that could buy that and for me, him having done it with a custom Mauser is even better. My sons and son in law all carry custom Mausers that I built for them. It’s an addiction.
- August 20, 2017 at 9:04 pm #46678Sgt. MikeParticipant
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I personally like Glenn first attempt looks functional.
I don’t have any Mauser’s in the safe custom or not. Mine is all pretty much Remington’s, Winchester, or 1903 Springfields.
Why? no other reason than I usually find better deals in those three than I do in any other brands. Personally I think one should customize what he or she desires such as Mausers as the OP mentions but not limited to that manufacture.
- August 20, 2017 at 9:31 pm #46680
I got a few of them like Glenn’s pictured above, and grew tired of it, I want to go to the next level.
And, I want a gun for hiking, so it is short.
- August 20, 2017 at 9:55 pm #46682GoodsteelKeymaster
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The thing that is missing from many of the rifles you can buy off the shelf is the idea that FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION. A precise, accurate rifle that fits YOU is a joy to own even if it looks like 3 miles of country road what got wiped out in a mud slide.
However, it disturbs me deeply when I see an ugly rifle that is unfinished and a well finished rifle that shoots like garbage. Unfortunately, this is often the case. Some of us long for that fine checkering that grips your hand, and that warm rich wood grain that you gives you something wonderful to study as the time passes, and bluing that is so deep and brilliant that water just beads up on it, and which refracts the light in a kind of inky rainbow……..
If you have something of that quality, that also happens to be the most precise rifle in your possession, and also was done exactly the way you want it done, it just cannot be replaced, and you look for reasons to use that tool.
It’s the same with a really fine chisel, or a hammer, or a japanese chefs knife (perhaps an old LL Bean?) or a set of snap-on wrenches…….you name it. (That’s exactly why I called my business Malcolm Ballistic Tool by the way. It’s exactly the way I see it.)
Now. To have a rifle like this built from scratch will indeed cost you $2500 just for starters. However, if that number bothers you, you could always join a forum where a pretty salty gunsmith will teach you any trick of the trade for free, and this is that place. I don’t mind helping, in fact, I’m writing a book on gunsmithing, in which I will detail every disgusting little detail that allows me to do what I do here. If you want to give it a try, ask me how to finish wood so it glows. Ask me how to prep metal so it divides light. Ask me how to chamber, bed, work over a trigger, and balance a rifle so you can shoot 1/2MOA out to 1000 yards. It’s all here for the asking.
However, the old adage: garbage in = garbage out was never so prevalent as it pertains to your rifle. Take your time. Work up the parts. Get the right stuff. (don’t know what the right stuff is? It’s all the stuff other than what I don’t use. LOL! Ask me and I’ll tell you what works!) The cost of these parts will add up. I’m not going to lie. Figure a Krieger barrel is $350 + a reamer rental of $75. A Richards Microfit stock is $500, and the tools to work on it, and finish it properly are going to be another $100 at least. A Timney or Jard trigger is another $100. A 3 position safety is $225 from NECG Custom. A good set of sights from NECG is about $250 average. Your bedding compound is $54 for Devcon 10-110. Your butt pad is about $35. Your checkering cutters are about $100. Your scope rail is $50-$150 as are your rings. Then you still have to have it blued after you’ve done all the polishing work to it and I charge $100 to forum members if all the metal prep is done.
Now that’s a chunk-o-change right there, and if you put it together sloppy, it’ll look like Johnny Cash’s “one piece at a time” cadillac. But if you take your time, and build it the right way, it’ll turn heads for 100 years after you’re gone. There’s no such thing as a solid mauser that isn’t worth building a rifle on, and any solid rifle can be built into a fantastic rifle if you hold true to the “form follows function” mantra.
- August 20, 2017 at 10:18 pm #46686Sgt. MikeParticipant
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to answer Kens question:
“When is it gonna stop !!!??? ”
uhhh it’s not LOL ….
Quality cost, pure and simple, set the parameters to what one desires don’t deviate. Short cuts and deviation cost extra money………… sometime we are penny wise yet dollar stupid in our choices in our desires.
It does not matter if it’s Mauser or a Remington same thing an addiction ….
- August 21, 2017 at 7:29 am #46692
I saw the analogy to what Tim said yesterday.
I went to the gun show specifically to look at dressed up mausers, and anything else with real wood & real bottom metal. BTW, real wood & real bottom metal is scarce on the racks today.
I saw 1 gun that stood out in the rack, and I went there. It had a different bottom on it, didnt recognise it, but it was real steel though. Nice wood, fore end tip, scope, pretty nice. When I picked it up it was a Springfield-03. The stamped bottom one, but it was at least all steel. Close look at it, nothing particularly fancy about it, but yet it stood out in a line up. Form follow function, evidently so.
Didn’t see any dressed up mausers, and only 1 other gun that stood out in the rack, a Win70, stainless, featherweight, the one with the flor-de-lis checkering pattern. Had it not been a 30-06 featherweight, I may have drooled over it sale a bit more. OH! You guys chime in on this, I think that same Win70 , as pretty and respected as it is is NOT form follow function. I say that because it is 30-06 in featherweight. I say that is too much caliber for too little weight. I say that featherweight would be a ‘form follow function’ if it was a Savage caliber, or .243 , .257Rob tops. To say that form follow function is also to say that the weight of the gun defines the caliber for said weight. What you guys say?
The ever famous Win 70 featherweight in .300mag is just over the top insane.
- August 21, 2017 at 9:43 am #46700GoodsteelKeymaster
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Kens, I agree…….for the most part. The 30-06 is what I call a pre-magnum cartridge, that feeds extremely well, and as such, it has two main functions: 1. Tossing bullets to 1000 yards with authority sans recoil generated from the next closest option, or, 2. depositing enormous energy into big critters up close. Also, of you’re looking for one cartridge to take care of everything a normal adventurous human being is likely to need, it is the perfect balance. However, a bolt action departing from the weight and build characteristics of the original Springfield, especially to make it lighter is a foolish trade in my opinion (if long shots are on the menu) as I firmly believe the Arsenal cut weight to a minimum of about 9.5 lb and that’s as light as you can reliably control that cartridge for the long shots (which would typically be the reason for a sportsman for going with the 30-06 over the 308 in the first place).
That said, there are situations where I feel if you play your cards right, the 30-06 can be used in a light package to gain back what the 308 loses with a short barrel, or to put game down just a little faster, or to run heavy bullets that the 308 is not suited to. I built one such rifle with a 16″ bull barrel, a very effective muzzle break, and a low power scope on a Winchester M70, and while it was extremely unorthodox, for the client’s intended purpose, it will work perfectly for a short range moose stopper.
So in general, I agree completely with your idea of matching the weight of the rifle to the cartridge being used, but there are times when that is not practical. For instance, when hunting sheep in the mountains, where hiking for miles is par for the course, every pound you shave off the rifle can be measured in miles of terrain added to your effective range, and shots are likely not going to be from one mountain top to the next, and the game is tough, and needs to be dropped in it’s tracks with a fairly aggressive energy deposit, then the rifle you mention may just be the golden ticket, with the average human able to use such a rifle to shoot 4MOA which is a 300 yard range of effectiveness. In that case, you are not shooting for groups, you’re hunting, and there is a difference.
- August 21, 2017 at 10:37 am #46705
I’ll be hiking and carrying this thing for miles, but not in the mountains, just in the south georgia heat on mostly flat ground. and climbing a tree stand, and shooting on the off side (deer never show up in a good position), so I gonna make it short like a youth rifle.
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