Viewing 15 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #28559
      Wright Arms
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 8
      • Comments: 130
      • Overall: 138

      I have a Savage Model 10 I just re-barreled with a Douglas heavy target blank in .260 Remington. I’ve not shot it much, but it is clear in is a consistent sub-MOA barrel. As I am always looking to best past performance, I started looking at case neck run-out. I have resized LC .308 brass, reamed the primer holes, evened the primer pockets, trimmed to 2.035″ and annealed. When checking the run-out on my fire-formed brass, I find most of it to be .002″, but nothing over that. So, I was thinking of turning the necks. So, I FLS with my Redding die, and now my run-out is anywhere from .005″ to .015″. Obviously, this is not good.

      So, my question to those with more experience than me is, have you run into this yourselves, and how did you correct it?

      To be clear, at this point, I am simply interested in not introducing more run-out during sizing. Obviously, there may be other clearance issues at play, but adding .003″ to .015″ of run-out while sizing is NOT what I had in mind.

      Looking forward to the ‘voices of experience’ here.

      Thanks to all.

    • #28562
      Goodsteel
      Keymaster
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 208
      • Comments: 2452
      • Overall: 2660

      Fire form, resize, THEN check it.

    • #28565
      Wright Arms
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 8
      • Comments: 130
      • Overall: 138

      That is exactly what I have done.

      1 – reformed the brass

      2 – fireformed the brass

      3 – checked case neck run-out (.002″ or less)

      4- FLS brass

      5 – checked case neck run- out ( .005″ to .015″).

      It is the apparent introduction of an additional .003″ – .012″ of neck run-out that I am asking for advice in preventing. Sorry I didn’t make my process clearer.

    • #28568
      Harter
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 76
      • Comments: 807
      • Overall: 883

      I’m dumb as mud here and I may be wrong but I’d suggest that the full length sizing is where you’re getting the run out. .
      I don’t know what mine is on any give cartridge but I long ago gave up full length in rifles I was looking for more in.
      This is the po’boy but it works method.
      I marker out 4 body lines and paint the shoulder in sharpie and adjust a 2nd sizer to (where I have 1 ) to just hit . It doesn’t matter where on the case because the neck is in the sizing first. When whatever rubs that’s where I stop . Where I have more than 1 chamber in a cartridge I set it up for the 1st bump. That only sizes .2 of the 06′ necks but only leaves a wide line at the shoulder/ neck of the 6.8 SPCII. I really don’t have the means to measure case run out so I don’t know how it is ,but I do know that there is always a little neck and All of the shoulder and base aligned with the bore and that the groups shrink after it’s formed.

      I would suggest the above or a correct neck die sizer die.

    • #28569
      Scharfschuetze
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 3
      • Comments: 190
      • Overall: 193

      When you full resize, are you using the expander button that is usually standard with FL dies? If so, you may be inducing the added run out from the expander button.

      I no longer use this button, but go two different routes depending on what the ammo is for.

      1. Redding bushing die to neck size and at the same time control the internal neck diameter with the various collets.

      2. FL size with a standard FL die, but without the expander button. Once sized I then use either the RCBS or the Lyman M-Die to expand the ID of the neck to what I want it to be. I have several sizes of these expanders to control the ID. By pushing the expander down through the neck, I find that it reduces run out when compared to the pull through expanding button.

    • #28571
      chutesnreloads
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 4
      • Comments: 161
      • Overall: 165

      You had ’em fireformed……why mess that up FL sizing?

    • #28573
      Doc Highwall
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 8
      • Comments: 123
      • Overall: 131

      As Scharfschuetze mention, if you are using a expander ball when you size the cases this can add to bullet run out.

      When I size my cases I use Reading full length bushing dies and Reading bushing neck sizing dies for both jacketed and cast. To expand the case necks and bell the case mouths I have Lyman / RCBS expanders.

      For my cast bullets that I am going to shoot out of my Remington 40X chambered in 7.62 NATO I modified a Forster benchrest seating die to accommodate bullets up to .311″ + and it has a floating expander to prevent bending the necks and minimize bullet run-out. Here is a link to the post that I made about it.

      https://30eca00a039f-002391.vbulletin.net/forum/testing-bullets-reloading-equipment-optics-guns-etc-etc-etc/7566-case-neck-expanders

    • #28575
      Wright Arms
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 8
      • Comments: 130
      • Overall: 138

      Scharfschuetze;n7730 wrote: When you full resize, are you using the expander button that is usually standard with FL dies? If so, you may be inducing the added run out from the expander button.

      I no longer use this button, but go two different routes depending on what the ammo is for.

      1. Redding bushing die to neck size and at the same time control the internal neck diameter with the various collets.

      2. FL size with a standard FL die, but without the expander button. Once sized I then use either the RCBS or the Lyman M-Die to expand the ID of the neck to what I want it to be. I have several sizes of these expanders to control the ID. By pushing the expander down through the neck, I find that it reduces run out when compared to the pull through expanding button.

      I see. You say the choice between these 2 methods depends upon what the ammo will be used for. Do you mean jacketed or cast, hunting or target, or something else I have failed to guess? And yes, I used the expander. Apparently, this is the crux of the problem.

    • #28576
      Wright Arms
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 8
      • Comments: 130
      • Overall: 138

      chutesnreloads;n7732 wrote: You had ’em fireformed……why mess that up FL sizing?

      Simply put, I have to resize the necks at least by some process, and the FLS die is my only option at the moment.

    • #28577
      Wright Arms
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 8
      • Comments: 130
      • Overall: 138

      Doc Highwall;n7734 wrote: As Scharfschuetze mention, if you are using a expander ball when you size the cases this can add to bullet run out.

      When I size my cases I use Reading full length bushing dies and Reading bushing neck sizing dies for both jacketed and cast. To expand the case necks and bell the case mouths I have Lyman / RCBS expanders.

      For my cast bullets that I am going to shoot out of my Remington 40X chambered in 7.62 NATO I modified a Forster benchrest seating die to accommodate bullets up to .311″ + and it has a floating expander to prevent bending the necks and minimize bullet run-out. Here is a link to the post that I made about it.

      https://30eca00a039f-002391.vbulleti…neck-expanders

      Do you find it necessary to expand the case mouth for flat-base jacketed bullets, or is this a cast only step? Read your post on die modification when you put
      it up. In part, it’s why I started asking my questions. I’m hoping to find a simpler solution, but I’m willing to do whatever is necessary to keep the runout to a minimum.

    • #28579
      Wright Arms
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 8
      • Comments: 130
      • Overall: 138

      I have a bit more information to add. I sorted thru about a dozen of my FLS .308 LC parent cases and found 5 with a neck runout of .001″ or less. I removed the expander from the Redding .260 die and ran these cases thru. Checked the neck runout and found it to still be .001″ or less. Put the expander back in, ran the cases thru a second time, and sure enough, the neck runout was .005″ to .015″.

      So. The source of the problem has been positively identified.

      As I am completely new to this particular process, (controlling cartridge concentricity), would some of you be so kind as to elaborate on your preferences concerning expanding dies (Lyman/RCBS), bushing dies, and neck sizers?

      It would seem that the bushing dies are the least versatile, requiring neck diameters to be equal, but have the advantage of setting neck tension where the reloader wishes. It also appears that depending upon the neck sizer chosen, at some point the brass will require FLS to bump the shoulder back.

      Any observations and experience will be much appreciated. Obviously, I need to change my process, and I’m trying to decide which method I want to use. Seems there are several options, all with advantages and dis-advantages to each method.

    • #28580
      popper
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 1
      • Comments: 293
      • Overall: 294

      “source of the (sic. ‘a’) problem has been positively identified.” Not until you expand the case neck with ‘something’ and check neck wall thickness. Expanding allowed the error but may NOT be the cause.

    • #28581
      Doc Highwall
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 8
      • Comments: 123
      • Overall: 131

      For flat base jacketed bullets you do not have to bell the case mouth.

      With the Reading dies that use the bushing, the bushings are available in .001″ increments allowing you to play with neck tension for just the price of a bushing. Take for example that you get a new lot of cases and the necks are either .001″ thicker or thinner, the bushings allow you to make the change to control the neck tension, just by changing the bushing.

      Controlling neck tension is very important to accuracy, too little tension and the start pressure is affected, and too tension and again start pressure is affected along with greater seating force, which gives greater bullet run-out of your loaded rounds.

      Most successful shooters that use the bushing dies suggest measuring a loaded round, and buying three (3) bushings, .001″ .002″, and .003″ smaller then your loaded cartridge case neck. Most of these recommendations are for jacketed bullets.

    • #28583
      Scharfschuetze
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 3
      • Comments: 190
      • Overall: 193

      Wright Arms;n7736 wrote:

      I see. You say the choice between these 2 methods depends upon what the ammo will be used for. Do you mean jacketed or cast, hunting or target, or something else I have failed to guess? And yes, I used the expander. Apparently, this is the crux of the problem.

      Yes, the purpose of the ammo determines the method.

      For cast bullet or long range loads not requiring rapid bolt manipulation, I just neck size with the bushing type dies. For cast bullets I bell the lip of the neck slightly. Flat base jacketed bullets do not require any belling. They’re pretty tough compared to cast projectiles.

      For anything requiring rapid bolt manipulation (rapid fire stages of NM shooting) semi-autos or hunting ammo, I full length resize.

      With these two different methods, I usually average .003″ or less of run out, but I’ll accept up to .004.” I’ve tested run out effects at 600 yards in bolt match rifles on several occasions and find that less than .004″ has no practical impact on bullet dispersion. Bench rest shooters will have a different opinion, but they are shooting rifles that usually require no sizing of cases at all or use very refined equipment for their ultra accurate rifles.

      I might add that when I set my sizing dies up in the press, I get the depth set to where I want it before tightening it down with the lock nut. Once I’m ready to tighten things up, I ram a case up into the die and then tighten the lock nut. That seems to help in aligning the die up for less run out.

    • #28584
      chutesnreloads
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 4
      • Comments: 161
      • Overall: 165

      I’d suggest taking the ammo you’ve loaded out and shoot it to see if it performs to your satisfaction.You may not NEED to change much or anything.I have 2 Savage model 10s.one in .223 and the other in .308.Now I don’t shoot in any competitions but get groups from both that can be covered with a dime at 100 yards.Both are loaded with a Lee collet neck sizing die and Lee seating dies.Suggest you work up as best shooting load as you can with what you have…..THEN…start tweaking your loading steps one thing at a time until you’re happy with it.Let the target tell you about your run out problem

    • #28617
      Sgt. Mike
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 84
      • Comments: 789
      • Overall: 873

      Like Scharfschuetze mentions I don’t use the expander any more and haven’t for 15 years.
      Flat based bullet a light chamfer will work without expanding the neck. Cast I use a M-die, jacket No expanders ever

      Lee and others make neck sizing dies the Redding (type S) and RCBS (Gold Medal Match series) is a bit more. Money not being the object I prefer the design concept of the bushing dies. but if the cost is offensive to your wallet you can usually find your needs versus price point, one option is the collet dies or the Lee Loader series by Lee.

      Once fireformed the case shoulder and body taper of the brass is at the optimum to your camber, at this point you only need to neck size. Some will say to set the FL to only neck size been there done that wore the t-shirt out results was not what can be attained with a neck sizing die. look on midway ebay or other sites a single neck sizing die can be had cheap enough.

      Example From Lee:
      http://leeprecision.com/collet-neck-sizing-die-only-complete.html
      or
      http://www.brownells.com/reloading/reloading-dies/rifle-dies/rcbs-neck-sizer-dies-prod35053.aspx
      Pick your posion

Viewing 15 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 2017 Goodsteel Forum. Designed by Covalent Designs, LLC.