- August 23, 2016 at 11:28 pm #29653
Got tired of babying my shoulder, tried some IMR 4895 in -06 with C-312-185-1R cast of my hombrew Lyman #2. Going to try to post a pic of my 100 yd 10 shot group.
- August 25, 2016 at 3:57 am #29678
I tried it again this afternoon, nearly identical group, first shot slightly high and right again. Pulled out my dope book and changed point of impact 47 clicks, back to j-word setting. Ran a brush and a couple of dry patches through the barrel. Shot 6 rds of my SMK load over 53.5 grs. of Win 760.Got a group slightly less than an inch, just about 7/8″. I realize the groups I am getting with cast would be adequate for hunting at 100 yds. but I really want that tight group. What should I do to tighten this load up? Dacron? Change lubes? Using White Label CR has been leaving a nice shiny bore.Also, I am running the boolit right up against the lands, seems to be the best with cast from what I have read. And I just realized that that target looks awful big in the picture, but it is a 12″x18″ sill-wet. Am I crazy to be looking for j-word accuracy from cast?
- August 25, 2016 at 4:49 am #29679ScharfschuetzeParticipant
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I don’t see the photo Remmie. There is an icon for one, but it is AWOL on my computer.
I’m guessing that you are using a bolt rifle. Larry will definitely recommend using a Dacron filler and that is always a good tip. What is your charge of 4895 and your velocity. My best Ought-Six loads end up between 1,800 and 1,900 fps for anything between 150 grains bullets to 210 grain bullets. I can’t speak to you lube choice as I haven’t used anything but the old NRA Alox formula from RCBS or Lyman ever since I cleaned out the lubrasizer of Lyman graphite lube in the early 70s.
My favorite Ought-Six loads with 4895 us the Lyman 311299 (208 grains) over 34 to 36 grains of 4895. Not much help to you given your Lee design, but I’d try a starting load of 33 grains of 4895 and work up from there. Get your bullet up to the lands (as your already are), slug your bore and size accordingly and try that tuff of Dacron. Clean any jacket fouling from the bore too.
To be honest, I’m happy, even thrilled, with 2 MOA 10 shot groups at 100 or 200 yards with cast bullets. Some of my rifles will do it and some won’t. Your 1 MOA rifle with MKs, should probably get to 2 MOA with some fine tuning.
- August 25, 2016 at 5:11 pm #29686
Well dang! I thought I had that picture thingy figured out. Back to the drawing board. I guess I shouldn’t be too dissapointed, the bullseye on that target is 2″x1.5″ and I had 8 out of 10 in the orange, but it still gives me a 2″+ group size. And I really want to fine tune to a 1″ group at 100 yds. Not sure about the velocity, load is only 30.2 grs of 4895. How high can I go with this powder?
And just out of curiosity, can anyone see the picture?
- August 25, 2016 at 5:23 pm #29688
And just out of curiosity, can anyone see the picture?
- August 26, 2016 at 5:32 am #29692ScharfschuetzeParticipant
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A full power load using a 180 grain jacketed bullet and 47 grains or so of 4895 for a velocity is in the neighborhood of 2,600 fps.
With a cast bullet, you can go all the way up there, but that would be a fool’s errand without some serious preparation. Top velocity with a cast bullet will be dependent on your alloy, lube, bore, rifling twist, throat etc. I’d think that with your 185 grain bullet you should be able to get up to 2,100 fps without too much fuss in a factory rifle.
Larry Gibson has some great tips for shooting them faster, but it also involves a slower twist than you have as well as some other esoteric stuff. I’ve shot his 150 grain cast bullets in a 308 at something like 2,800 fps at 300 yards with Match King accuracy and absolutely no leading. I’m sure he’ll chime in when he has time.
I believe that our host, Goodsteel, built his latest high velocity cast bullet rifle.
- August 26, 2016 at 1:08 pm #29695
If it hadn’t been for Larry’s article about that bullet, I wouldn’t be trying it. And thanks to Goodsteels article on casting consistency I have been using+/- .3 grs as a weight sorting standard. Very few culls at that level and most of the variation appears to be after dressing them. They are sized to.311. I guess I should just quit whining and enjoy shooting them, but that desire for better is a strong force. Other than that, my main thought is that if I can get the groups tighter at 100yds I will have less problems with linear dispersion at longer distance. I guess my first step is going to be working a ladder by .2 grain increments until accuracy drops or leading occurs and go from there. Trying to get surgery scheduled on this torn rotor cup, but it seems Medicare and the VA have a lot in common. Well, actually, I think my first step is going to be the dacron, then the ladder. At the very least I get to enjoy this 03A3 some more.
- August 26, 2016 at 10:22 pm #29698
It’s awesome that you are getting good results, and I’m pleased as punch that you read my article, but seriously, the whole point was to eliminate errors in the first place, not to weight sort.
Weight sorting is simply a way of saying “yeah, I screwed up the whole run, but I’ll take the ones that magically landed in the target zone because the scale makes me feel better.” Meanwhile, all those culls are screaming at you that you are doing something drastically wrong and they are trying to help guide you to a solution to fix it.
This is about learning to drop perfect bullets that vary less than .2 grains each. If you manage to get dialed in to that point, then weight sort if you feel the need, but you took care of 99% of the culls right off the bat.
The point is that there are many flaws that you cannot detect in one bullet but you will see a sub standard casting technique in the bell curves! If that happens, you know that you have work to do, and only when you get dialed in to the point that you can cast a perfect run, does weight sorting mean ANYTHING.
The whole point of the consistency applied article was to use it as a method to teach yourself to be a better caster, but despite my repeated and incessant insistence to the contrary, people still think I’m talking about weight sorting, which I am not.
If you take a caster who drops 300 bullets and the weight spread is over 3 grains, and that person sorts out the ones that all way the same.
and compare it to a person who:
drops 300 bullets and the weight spread is less than .3 grains total, then that person sorts out the ones that all weigh the same.
Which hombre will have better bullets? Which one would you buy from if you were of a mind to purchase?
Which one would you COMPETE with eh?
I apologize if I detracted from the post. Congratulations and well wishes all the way around.
- August 27, 2016 at 4:19 am #29699
Tim, most of my boolits nowadays are +/- .3 grs. as cast. Not all, I do have bad sessions. After I put the checks on and lube them I like to kind of double check the weight. I guess I get a little obsessive sometimes. But at least I am not doing the full 3 grain or more variation like I was when I first started. I checked some .230 gr. 45’s that I did when I first started and was shocked at the difference in what I had thought were good bullets. Some had a full 5 grs. of difference. Priming the spout and consistent timing and temperature are the main things for me.A big school room style clock with a second hand right behind the pot has been a major advance in my casting. And if I had never read your article I would probably still be trying to figure it out. Thanks for all you do.
- August 27, 2016 at 4:25 am #29700Larry GibsonParticipant
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I weight sort my cast match bullets for 2 reasons; 1st is to verify the consistency of a specific batch of cast bullets. I usually cast 500 to 600 bullets at a session with either of my 2 four cavity moulds (311466 & the 30 XCB). With a 2 cavity mould I usually cast 350 – 400. After weight sorting and a close visual culling I end up with about 85 – 90 % usable bullets. Out of any batch. The majority of rejected bullets are “light” bullets or those with any visual defect. The usable bullets fall within +/- 2.5 tenth of a gr. The light bullets are lighter than that indicating a possible internal void, unseen external fillout or uneven solidification. There are also a few (usually less than 1%) “heavies”…those that are heavier than the +/- 2.5 bell curve indicating the mould blocks were probably not closed correctly.
The 2nd reason I weight sort is to select those cast bullets for the best possible accuracy in testing and for use in matches. I have shot probably 10,000 cast bullets fo match accuracy from 1600 to 2900+ fps with 4 different bullets out of 4 different rifles in 3 different cartridges the last 6 years. I have consistently found that given an accurate load thos bullets that weight sort in the high 1/3rd end of the acceptable bell curve give the best accuracy. Sometimes not by much but still enough that I prefer to use those when the finest accuracy is desired, especially if HV is in the equation or if shooting at 200+ yards. Out of a batch of 600 cast bullets I usually end up with 200+ such bullets I consider as”match” quality.
However, if shooting at gongs, dirt clods rocks or shooting at 50 yards then simply casting consistent bullets and only doing a visual cull for defects should be quite sufficient.
- August 27, 2016 at 11:07 am #29701
You’ve got this by the horns.
- August 29, 2016 at 12:51 am #29730
Larry, you pretty much covered why I was weight sorting. I am trying to work up the most accurate load possible with rifle/bullet/powder combination. By eliminating as many variables as possible the results should be more consistent. I even shoot the same batch 3 days in a row to eliminate the human variable as much as possible. In other words I ain’t good enough that I don’t have off days on the trigger. And out of the 150 bullets I sorted I only culled about 6. And .3 grs. is closer than a box of SMKs. I know many people that even weight sort them.
- August 29, 2016 at 10:51 am #29734
That is superb casting sir. Absolutely superb.
I got PM after PM over on Castboolits thanking me for that article. They would say “you made a believer out of me Tim. Yep, I’m weighing all my boolits to +-.5 grains even if I have to throw 3 out of four back in the pot!”.
I tried and tryed to tell them my post was not presented as a way to “find the good ones” but as a way to guide a caster to the level of proficiency that you and Larry are describing in this thread here.
There were only a handful of guys that got it. The rest were just so excited to use their scale for something other than powder. I really think the whole bell curve method went right over their heads.
Anyway, my previous post was a bit of a knee jerk reaction.
I sure am happy you found the consistancy applied method useful in its original context.
- August 29, 2016 at 11:33 am #29735
One of the things that seems to be over looked a lot is consistent alloy. When I was just adding “a bit of solder” to my wheel weights or range lead I had a lot more variation. Then I was reading something about SN and SB affecting as dropped weight from a given mold, and it clicked. Nowadays I make alloys in fairly large batches ( for me 60 – 100 lbs) and use only the same batch for the run of bullets. And I keep a serious amount of notes on everything. I am also wondering how much effect ambient air temperature affects every thing, just got a thermometer for the shop about 2 months ago and started keeping records on that. Not enough data yet for a SWAG, maybe a year from now. My shop is starting to look like and office with tools, LOL. But anyway, mixing alloy in batches and not just sweetening the pot for “castability” made a big jump in consistency. FWIW.
- August 29, 2016 at 2:28 pm #29736
Remmie;n9258 wrote: One of the things that seems to be over looked a lot is consistent alloy. When I was just adding “a bit of solder” to my wheel weights or range lead I had a lot more variation. Then I was reading something about SN and SB affecting as dropped weight from a given mold, and it clicked. Nowadays I make alloys in fairly large batches ( for me 60 – 100 lbs) and use only the same batch for the run of bullets. And I keep a serious amount of notes on everything. I am also wondering how much effect ambient air temperature affects every thing, just got a thermometer for the shop about 2 months ago and started keeping records on that. Not enough data yet for a SWAG, maybe a year from now. My shop is starting to look like and office with tools, LOL. But anyway, mixing alloy in batches and not just sweetening the pot for “castability” made a big jump in consistency. FWIW.
You are absolutely correct. I found that each alloy has it’s own needs and personality as to temperature of the pot, mold, and target weight in the bell curve.
One thing that effects the entire equation (I’m sure you noticed) that is much harder to control is ambient air temperature, humidity, and airflow over the pot and mold. There are some times I have had the devil of a time getting a good run due to these environmental factors, but I’m about to nail that down as well with an indoor vented casting operation.
- August 30, 2016 at 4:34 am #29752
I think I have found the load I am looking for. I ran 10 each of 32grs., 33grs., and 34 grs of 4895. The 34 grain load had 7 out of 10 in a spot just a little larger than a quarter. The three that were outside the group were about 3/4″ to the left, ad 2 of them made just one oversized hole. Also I used BLL for lube. Nice clean shiny barrel. I don’t have access to a chrony any more so I have no idea what the velocity is on these. If anybody has any data or even a good guess as to the velocity I would appreciate the info. Man, I have got to get a photo hosting site set up, I am so excited by some of these groups with cast that I really want to share.
- August 30, 2016 at 3:07 pm #29762
Remmie;n9284 wrote: I think I have found the load I am looking for. I ran 10 each of 32grs., 33grs., and 34 grs of 4895. The 34 grain load had 7 out of 10 in a spot just a little larger than a quarter. The three that were outside the group were about 3/4″ to the left, ad 2 of them made just one oversized hole. Also I used BLL for lube. Nice clean shiny barrel. I don’t have access to a chrony any more so I have no idea what the velocity is on these. If anybody has any data or even a good guess as to the velocity I would appreciate the info. Man, I have got to get a photo hosting site set up, I am so excited by some of these groups with cast that I really want to share.
Bring it on! I wrote a sticky on how to upload pictures from a photobucket account. Pretty simple once you get the swing of it.
Congrats on getting a sharp shooting cast load!
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