Viewing 26 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #28281
      Harter
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 76
      • Comments: 807
      • Overall: 883

      About a year ago I worked up a load of H110 in Winchester Brass with a CCI mag primer and a 454424 . The load shot great , 2″ at 50 yd . The Rosschester 92′ has always shot consistently good or bad ,I mean the loads work or don’t . The load data was from Hogdon and isn’t identified as a Ruger/Contender load just a +P at 16-18 kpsi . The loads were worked up in 70 degrees @ 4000 ft and shot a 2″ 3 shot sight check at sea level and 75*
      So today I shot a few 95 pushing 100 degrees 5500 ft . The 1st shot at 100 went a little high so I changed my hold from 12: 00 to pumpkin on a post …. same poi for the 2nd shot .
      Ok maybe it’s me . Focus . Bead in the bottom of the U , steel on top of the bead , poi 3 ft above POH. The 4th shot went 6 ft if it went an inch , the 5th shot was at least 8 ft high from POH . 6 shots in under 2 min .

      Is this a quirk of the platform getting hot or maybe the load ? Is it fixible or something I’m stuck with ?

      October 13′ manufacture
      Braztec M92
      45 Colts
      16″ barrel
      Full length mag
      Figure 8 band with center screw .
      Magazine cap screw and barrel tension.
      Dove tail front sight.

    • #28282
      Butch Wax
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 22
      • Comments: 158
      • Overall: 180

      My first thought would be sighting error. I shoot a Rossi (Braztech import mfg by Taurus) in .357mag. It has the thick buckhorn rear sight and brass bead front. At best, those factory sights are marginal. Depending on the time of day, the position of the sun, and such I’m able to get from good to lousy sight pictures. And I am a dedicated iron sight shooter with leverguns too. But I’ve never experienced a shot spread measured in feet.

      I use the same bullet in my Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 with 14gr of Red Dot. Cast from a single cavity Ideal that drops at .457″ it fits my bore perfectly. That round shoots consistently under 2″ at 100yds of sandbags with factory sights. I know the bullet is accurate from a long gun.

      So, my point? Unless your barrel is flopping around or bouncing off the bags, I’m inclined to believe sights. With the Rossi sights on my R92, I have moments when I question my sight picture when shooting in some lighting conditions. And I have decent eyes for open sights too.

      So not to sound like a cranky old man (which I am at times lol) I can only surmise you’re shifting your sight picture a bunch perhaps in an unconscious effort to over correct. Now don’t think I’ve lost my mind, but when my eyes went south for a time I mounted a Marble’s Bullseye rear sight on my Marlin. It was like having a miniature antiaircraft sight on my carbine. My shooting went from “Why can’t I hit the target?” To “Wow! That’s a great group!”. A ridiculously great rear sight.

    • #28288
      Harter
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 76
      • Comments: 807
      • Overall: 883

      I thought it might be me . But I shot 4/10 standing off hand on a unknown 100-200 yd steel with a highpoint 945 45 ACP carbine on a 12;x18 plate. .
      I’ll try it again this morning.

    • #28291
      JRR
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 23
      • Comments: 84
      • Overall: 107

      Do you have the carbine model with the two barrel band clamps or the rifle? If it is the carbine, the rear clamp screw may be binding or putting pressure on the barrel/mag tube. This is the clamp that holds the wood to the barrel/mag. There is a small cut out for the screw to pass between the barrel and mag tube. On many of these, the cut out needs to be opened up slightly for the the screw to pass cleanly and not apply bending pressure that when heated will cause changing distortion of the barrel. Some of these carbines are so bad in this location, that is almost impossible re-install the screw. While your at it, check the front clamp as well for stress on the barrel/mag.

      My Rossi 357 had this issue.

      Jeff

    • #28303
      Harter
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 76
      • Comments: 807
      • Overall: 883

      I’ll look at that.

      I shot some more today the weird about this gets weirder and forces more shooting research. …both in fact . They seem to hit well but it all goes sideways and the shots clime with an improbable angles beyond 75 yds ….. …
      I’ve heard of bullets getting unstable as they coast down through super sonic aND I’ve had a almost full WC SWC tip over it nose .but I’m having trouble with an 8ft curve in 25yd.

    • #28312
      Butch Wax
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 22
      • Comments: 158
      • Overall: 180

      Reminds me of a Browning B92 in 44Mag I had a few years ago. The absolute worst weapon I ever owned. It sprayed rounds all over the place down range. Positively disgusting piece of junk. Traded it for a nice .30’06. But not before I spent hundreds on that B92 trying to make it work. Some are just not worth the aggravation.
      Life’s too short to waste time and valuable resources on a lemon. In my advanced years I’ve learned this lesson: I simply will not keep a weapon that won’t work. There’s plenty out there that do and it makes no sense to spend hundreds on one that’s wrong.

    • #28314
      Goodsteel
      Keymaster
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 208
      • Comments: 2452
      • Overall: 2660

      Did you replace the barrel? I don’t care what the gun is. The barrel carries the lions share of whether it shoots or not, and sets the tone for how the rifle works. If it doesn’t shoot the way you want it too, the barrel is the very first place you start.

    • #28318
      Butch Wax
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 22
      • Comments: 158
      • Overall: 180

      Nope. Didn’t want to spend another dime on that fancy finished fossil. It cost me enough already.

    • #28320
      Goodsteel
      Keymaster
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 208
      • Comments: 2452
      • Overall: 2660

      I’m working to get a Browning 1886 to shoot right now. I have re-barreled to a green mountain octagon, and a buddy of mine managed to stick 8 in one ragged hole. Still trying to do that myself. He’s good, but he’s not THAT good.

    • #28322
      Harter
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 76
      • Comments: 807
      • Overall: 883

      I have considered having a new bbl fitted on the 16″ but it is still in the future a while It’s likely to be much sooner if it continues to give me greif. Who doesn’t love a short magazine lever gun. (20″barrel with the 16″ magazine )

    • #28323
      Rattlesnake Charlie
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 152
      • Comments: 679
      • Overall: 831

      Is your barrel connected to the magazine at any point?
      If so, disconnect (or at lease loosen) that fastening point, and check if the problem persists.

    • #28325
      Harter
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 76
      • Comments: 807
      • Overall: 883

      Just at the stock band and the magazine band . It’ll be a good weekend to mess with it.

    • #28327
      Rattlesnake Charlie
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 152
      • Comments: 679
      • Overall: 831

      If this does not help, at least you will have eliminated one more possible problem area.

    • #28328
      Harter
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 76
      • Comments: 807
      • Overall: 883

      Just at the stock band and the magazine band . It’ll be a good weekend to mess with it.

    • #28523
      Harter
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 76
      • Comments: 807
      • Overall: 883

      I reslugged the 16″ barrel and found it to be tight at the chamber end .446x.452 fat. The lands are about 125% of the grooves in width kind of weird for a rifle barrel to be that way ,so I ran a 2nd slug which passed freely at .453 .
      I have made arrangements for.a 458 dia 350 gr mould .I found a hand full of misplaced jacketed bullets also .

      I also double slugged the 20″ , 448 x 452 . Both slugs got tight about 3″ from chamber ,it looks clean but there may be some fouling . Interestingly the grooves are about 125% the width of the lands .

      I was gifted a 448 dia 429426 I can paper patch to 454 and run a bunch through both rifles . Maybe some laps too in the older rifle.

    • #28526
      Wright Arms
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 8
      • Comments: 130
      • Overall: 138

      If I read your post correctly and your bore/groove diameter is smaller at the chamber than the muzzle, I suggest you not waste any more of your time persueing accuracy with such a barrel and save your money for a rebarrel. And if you are finding constrictions, you may want to look in the dovetail areas, if there are any. Both have caused me many hours of grief in the recent past.

      If I misunderstand, then pardon my intrusion.

    • #28529
      Butch Wax
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 22
      • Comments: 158
      • Overall: 180

      The narrow lands appears to be common among Rossi R92 rifles. And I have to question your choice for a longer larger bullet in a 1:30″ bore of smaller than a .458″? I shudder to think of the chamber pressure.

      Have you tried a shorter bullet? Something with less bearing surface? Take a look at Badman Bullets. They sell samples of 25 for around $8.95 postpaid if I recall. Enough to test and not too many to be stuck with if they fail. Sure beats getting a bunch of moulds to try bullets with. Just a thought…..

    • #28540
      Harter
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 76
      • Comments: 807
      • Overall: 883

      It was suggested elsewhere . Based on pure results and observations > have to think that destabilizing I s the answer, but to be 100% honest I haven’t tried a harder bullet and until this event I hadn’t had cause or desire or need tho shoot beyond 65 or so yds . .
      Things I do kno_ about the the 16″ a load that clocks 950 in the 7.5 Ruger Blackhawk with a Lee 452-252 @454-262 would shoot 2″ at 50 yd and whack plate out to 65 yd off hand and field rests the samething with a Lee 452,255 RNFP @454-265 both from 50/50 WW / 1-20 . When the SWC load was stepped up to the RBH 1050 load it was printing full profile at 50 yd . .
      Dropping back for the next step I worked a Heavy load with H110 and 454424 that shot well out to the 75 yd and made tree leaning 100 yd 12″ hits for the sake of shooting. I believe as I’m a poor record keeper ,they wander off and I only keep the best loads logged in load data , that the load is turning about 1300 at the muzzle . Since .
      I have RB moulds of 451,454 and 490 ,a 45-200,452-255,454424 and a few wandering odd bullets from various sources. We know that every bullet will get squirrely as it passes through trans-sonic . My thoughts suggest that the heat was an irritant to that exaggerating some defect . Because of the Kentucky windage applied for hold over and the poi results there to,I have to believe no matter how improbably that the stability is at the core of the failure and is a velocity induced problem.
      While it is unlikely for 2 rifles to share a load , brass etc even in a pistol cartridge carbine it is even more improbable that they would display identical defects in accuracy with a 16 and 20 inch barrels . 1 with a dovetail sight and 1 with a band sight and such different land /groove arrangements they may as well be different cartridges in different cal. So I believe that the answer ,after much thought, has to be in the balistics beyond the muzzle. I have I have3 option s at this point sell both rifles to a CASS guy and buy a great rifle or have 1 built that will run 460 S&W down to 45 Schofield, rebarrel both rifles in a better suited twist or find a bull load that doesn’t get sloppy beyond 75 yd.
      I don’t think unloading them would be a problem. Building a single replacement would be costly as 336s are few and far out here and the conversion from 450 or 444 Marlin would be a hassle and feeding the short cases probably wouldn’t work anyway. . That brings me to spending $400 on a $400 rifle which I have done but I’ll never see a return on that in this case .
      That leaves me with a looking for a load that will beat the aerodynamics by shape or speed or carries what I need /want by weight . .

      As to the choke I’m inclined to think it is a fouling issue . I think the previous owner of the 20″ was not a cast shooter and used factory ammo a a very enthusiastic cleaning is probably in order to remove ironed in lead stuck to copper .

    • #28543
      Reg
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 40
      • Comments: 256
      • Overall: 296

      Something else to look at. Check the length of the magazine tube. You do not want a tight fit from the front attachment point to where it fits in the front of the receiver. Made up a 92 in 44 Mag. a few years back and it wanted to vertical string a bit. Filed off just the tiniest amount from the rear of the tube and it stopped.

    • #28558
      lar45
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 21
      • Comments: 224
      • Overall: 245

      Do they both climb, or is it just the 16″ gun?
      I have a 24″ octagon Stainless Puma 92 in 45 Colt and it shoots great. It even went through a fire and still shoots great. It is consistent enough to blast pinecones at 85yds. My load is the Hunter’s Supply 275 with 21gns IMR 4227 seated to 1.656″ with a Win LP primer and Starline brass. I don’t remember the velocity.

    • #28560
      Harter
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 76
      • Comments: 807
      • Overall: 883

      After today I don’t have to say replicating the conditions will be a problem , heat is a factor in this also . When the metal is almost to hot to touch and you’re not shooting yet it’s too hot to be out. I’ve taken a look the suggestions and I will tinker with them as time allows.

      I’ve put the known into several calculators and the dimensions and weight of the bullets isn’t the problem, aerodynamics maybe but not the dimensions.
      That takes me to mechanical issues. Induced torque. It never occurred to me that in the case of the 20″ that shrinking wood might be a problem. Mid-Texas to western high Nevada desert.

    • #28570
      Reg
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 40
      • Comments: 256
      • Overall: 296

      Yes, it is mechanical. Wood changing is always a first suspect.

    • #28798
      Reg
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 40
      • Comments: 256
      • Overall: 296

      How did you come out on this ??

    • #28892
      Harter
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 76
      • Comments: 807
      • Overall: 883

      I’ve done some armchair tinkering, it’s too hot to shoot lately for more than an hour or so unless you’re set up by 730 so not much interest in being out. With a lust for a Colts to 460 rifle and a moon clipped companion DA revolver running wild I cut up a split 308 case . Just fidgeting mind you. With a couple of laps of scotch tape I started long and well flared ……. I found the the chamber of the 16″ is way too long. The exact dimensions aren’t in hand but 1.32 sounds familiar basically halfway between Colts and Casuall.
      I guess the next step will be to beg a few Casuall cases and trim to fit or maybe some split neck Jap ,Swift or Sweed brass. Now that the juices are flowing Krag ,Brit or maybe even Russian might do the job. ……… I cringe at the idea of buying Casuall brass to cut for a Colts.

      Tim I’m putting aside a day maybe like 1/2/17 to drop by .

    • #29619
      Harter
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 76
      • Comments: 807
      • Overall: 883

      OK had a potentially exciting day . I was gifted a mould and found some bullets that have the potential to make the super heavy weight subsonic tank killer . I forgot the Front so I have no velocity data from the trip an my real concern was more to see if the heavy bullets would print round or profile
      First victim. Is a very soft TC of 300 gr it is a single lube groove with 2/crimp grooves ,I’ve seen it before it’s a little bit like the Accurate 45-300LG but PB . I loaded a few 8.5 and 9 gr of Unique as suggested by the Speer book for a River load with a 300 gr JHP. Case neck tension is a reflection of the groups . I guess I will have to break down and give these a full length and trim or start with zero loads brass . These shot well enough and made round holes
      ​​​ at 25 yd .

      Next up was a gifted 458-350RNFP from a Lee single ​​. This was was a surprise at 25 yd , the holes were round . The Mountain Molds work sheet suggests that the 30 twist is about 4″ too long . @ 353 gr I’m out in the weeds as far as how to get it out of the barrel at 900+ fps without breaking the toys . H4198 being an old school stick powder seemed safe and doesn’t seem to get weird with space or 100% case space . So I held my breath and tried 18 and 18.5 . Well I have all my digits and the bullets made it to the trap , a phone chronograph app which I have little to no faith in gave 640-685 fps . There is room both in the case and by the high precision eyeball reading of primers .
      ​​​​​The shots landed with sufficient consistency to make an increase by 0.2 gr and extend this to 50 yd .

      As to the original problem there doesn’t seem to be a mechanical even with the heat today . It was 90 plus and by the time the 12 rounds for this test were fired the action was uncomfortable to handle , not so hot you couldn’t pick it up but hot enough that it would make you happy to switch hands if you had to go more than a couple of truck lengths to put it down out of the sun.

    • #29626
      Waksupi
      Participant
      • Silver
      • ★★
      • Posts: 6
      • Comments: 106
      • Overall: 112

      If the fore end wood bears on the receiver, it will cause the shots to rise as it heats up. There should be a bit of clearance between the two.

    • #29630
      Harter
      Participant
      • Gold
      • ★★★
      • Posts: 76
      • Comments: 807
      • Overall: 883

      I have determined that the bizarre behavior was the result of the bullets reaching a catastrophic stability failure . Henc my exploring the super heavyweight fringe .

Viewing 26 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 2017 Goodsteel Forum. Designed by Covalent Designs, LLC.