This topic contains 19 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Larry Gibson 1 year, 7 months ago.

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  • #33213
     Larry Gibson 
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    A while back (ok, a long time ago….:o) Tim sent me some of his 35 XCBs to test…..I finally got around to it yesterday……..

    Tim cast them of his MBT in house alloy and HT’d or WQ’d them to a BHN of 27 according to my Lee tester. Tim can probably fill us in on the details. I sized them to .360, lubed ’em with 2500+ and seated Hornady GCs on them. In W-W Super 35 Rem cases primed with WLR primers I loaded them over 39, 40, 41 and 42 gr of LeveRevolution powder. The 42 gr load was at 100% load density.

    Yesterday was a really nice day here with sunshine, little wind and hardly anyone at the range. Testing was done at 100 yards with 10 shot strings of course. I used the Oehler M43 each load. The M91 Argentine was rebarreled and finish chambered by me. The barrel is one of the pre threaded, short chambered 14″ twist 26″ SR Mauser Shilen barrels from Brownells. I did the rebarreling back in the late ’90s. It sports a Lyman SME aperture rear sight and I modified a Mauser front sight band for an M14 front sight. It gives a very good sight picture, one I am very familiar with. It has been a stellar performer with the RCBS 35-200-FN bullet at 2150 fps. I tool an excellent 8 point WT in Texas some years back with it. I also shoot a lot of Lee’s 356-120-TCs over 5 gr BE in it.

    In years past I could hold moa with aperture sights. Not so anymore. My old eyes aren’t what they used to be and 2 moa for 10 shots is about it these days. I was pleasantly surprised at the overall accuracy of the 4 loads, on target anyway. Yet having the ability to measure internal ballistics demonstrates the difference that a even single 10 shot groups don’t. In the following data printouts of each load note the five “ES” figures (Velocity, Prf, Peak,, Area, Rise) under the “Summery” section; observe under the best load (42 gr) that they are the smallest and most consistent) . In the long run that load will produce the best and most consistent accuracy.

    The 39 gr LvR load;

    NOTE: The SAAMI MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for the 35 Remington is 35,500 psi(peizo-transducer/strain gauges). Thus I would consider the 39 gr load at a measured 35,800 average psi as a maximum load for use in lever, pump and semi-auto actions. The remaining 3 loads should only be used in strong bolt or single shot actions.

    39 gr load; 2.75″ group

    The 40 gr load; 2.15″ group

    The 41 gr load; 2.18″ group

    The 42 gr load; 1.58″ group

    As we see from the internal ballistics data the 42 gr load is where LeveRevolution begins to burn consistently under the 231 gr cast 35 XCB bullet. Also at a muzzle velocity (the M43 converts the screened velocity to muzzle velocity and is listed under the Standard Atmospheric Ballistics section) of 2314 fps LeveRevolution powder makes the 35 XCB bullet a real thumper out of a 35 Remington.

    Larry Gibson

  • #33214
     Goodsteel 
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    35XCB.
    Told you that was a good bullet.
    LOL! Thanks Larry.

  • #33217
     kens 
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    This should be a sticky post. I’m in process of putting one of those barrels on a M95.
    Now, If I could just get the old 7mm barrel to come out…………

  • #33220
     Goodsteel 
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    If you need some advice with that, holler at me. I have a bit of experience in that regard.
    479-445-3989

  • #33222
     Sgt. Mike 
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    OOOOHHHHHH NOOOO not a post with tabulated data and groups. Just useless, useless I tell ya ………

    Don’t put that up just any where people have been banned for such blasphemy.
    (for those not in on the humor of this, it is humor between several of us)

    On the serious side, great input Larry as usual I’m sure some of the members here will find it extremely useful.

  • #33224
     Harter 
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    Sgt don’t make me bust out the hersay and questionable data ……….

  • #33230
     Sgt. Mike 
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    Harter;n13861 wrote: Sgt don’t make me bust out the hersay and questionable data ……….

    LMAO over here

  • #33231
     kens 
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    Out of curiosity, where is LvR powder on the burn rate chart?

  • #33235
     bjornb 
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    On Hodgdon’s latest burn rate chart the 2 powders above it are BL-C 2 and CFE223, the 2 below are H380 and Ramshot Big Game.
    However, in my experience this powder behaves differently from where you think it would belong on the burn rate chart. Larry turned me onto LvR several years ago when we were doing the HV and XCB trials on CBF and NOE forum. I have shot sub 2 MOA groups above 3000 fps in my 1:14 twist 30×57 bench rifle with no apparent pressure issues. It’s an amazing powder.

  • #33248
     Goodsteel 
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    bjornb;n13872 wrote: On Hodgdon’s latest burn rate chart the 2 powders above it are BL-C 2 and CFE223, the 2 below are H380 and Ramshot Big Game.
    However, in my experience this powder behaves differently from where you think it would belong on the burn rate chart. Larry turned me onto LvR several years ago when we were doing the HV and XCB trials on CBF and NOE forum. I have shot sub 2 MOA groups above 3000 fps in my 1:14 twist 30×57 bench rifle with no apparent pressure issues. It’s an amazing powder.

    That’s right. My understanding is that it actually burns different than a normal powder per burn speed. I think it burns longer but Larry could probably speak much more intelligently about it than I can.

  • #33254
     Larry Gibson 
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    Observing many time/pressure traces over the last 9 years in numerous cartridges with numerous powder/load combinations what you see with LvR powder is a much slower rise to peak pressure and a much slower drop in pressure to muzzle exit. Though peak pressure, in a given cartridge with a given bullet, between LvR and the medium burning powders it is listed with may be the same and exit pressure may be the same the time/pressure trace is much different with LvR. If 4895 under a 150 gr jacketed bullet will reach peak psi about 6 – 7″ down the barrel with LvR peak psi will be about 9 – 10 ” down the barrel. Doesn’t sound like much but it’s how Hornady gets 2450 fps out of a 24″ M94 under SAAMI MAP. It’s how I get 2550 fps out of the same rifle with a 150 gr jacketed bullet under SAAMI MAP.

    It also works well in medium capacity cartridges up through the 30×57. It also needs a certain amount of bullet weight getting to a certain psi before it will burn efficiently. In the 30-30 for example it performs well with as light as 150 gr jacketed bullets but needs 170+ weight in a cast bullet. It doesn’t burn the same in larger cases such as my 30×60 or the ’06. Its not a miracle powder for every application but works excellently in a few cartridges. It obviously was awesome in the 35 Rem with those 35 XCB bullets…..eh?

    Larry Gibson

  • #33262
     Goodsteel 
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    Eh. A world of “eh”. Very nice indeed. I wish they made more powders like this. It was a HV cast bullet wonder worker in the 30X57 and 35X57.

  • #33268
     Sgt. Mike 
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    Larry Gibson;n13895 wrote: …….
    It also works well in medium capacity cartridges up through the 30×57. It also needs a certain amount of bullet weight getting to a certain psi before it will burn efficiently. ……………

    Larry Gibson

    in reference to the discussion during the time period that Bjorn is talking above and coupled with what Larry points out that I quoted above.

    I talked to Hodgdon about this powder and I have used it in the 30-06. What I was informed is that the larger case of the 30-06 depending on the weight of the projectile would act differentially in it’s burn and pressure curve. As such it is not really recommended for that case capacity hence is why you really don’t see any data on their site. With cast it performed well enough in my limited experience.

  • #33285
     kens 
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    I read all that you guys say about LvR, and I must ask about something,
    Is it just me, or are you guys seeing the ‘sweet spot’ for this powder to be exactly at 100% case capacity, rather than the cartridge/caliber ?

  • #33288
     bjornb 
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    Kens, 100% case capacity would be a serious overcharge with LvR. In the 30×57 I got MVs of 2800 fps with 45 grains, which was about 75% CC. In one test I loaded in 2 grain increments up to 55 grains (95%CC). This produced an MV of 3316 fps and the bolt handle was hard to open. The bullet was the NOE 165 XCB, rifle was Bertha 30×57, lube was White Label 2700+.

  • #33290
     Larry Gibson 
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    kens

    I read all that you guys say about LvR, and I must ask about something,
    Is it just me, or are you guys seeing the ‘sweet spot’ for this powder to be exactly at 100% case capacity, rather than the cartridge/caliber
    ?”

    I’ve found testing LvR powder in the 7.62×39, 30-30 and 35 Rem that they do require 100% load density with a bullet of sufficient mass/friction coefficient for optimum performance. In the .308W Palma rifle with 14″ twist 27.6″ barrel and the 30×60 XCB I found optimum performance with the 311466 and the 30 XCB bullets at less than 90% load density. I actually used a Dacron filler for best performance. However, in those cases with those bullets LvR did not perform as well accuracy wise as AA4350 and H4831SC. One of these days I’ll get around to testing LvR with heavier 311041 (178 gr) and 311299s (200 gr) in the .308W Palma rifle.

    Larry Gibson

  • #33292
     Goodsteel 
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    I never filled the case with LVR powder. There was definitely free space in there, and yet, it performed better than any other propellant in 30 and 35 XCB. I expect the X57 case is the maximum capacity that is viable with LVR, but viable it is with cast bullets.

  • #33294
     bjornb 
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    Again, the only cartridge I tested with LvR was the 30×57 XCB. I defer to Larry regarding all other cartridges.

  • #33463
     NYBushBro 
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    Has anyone thought of using LVR with cast bullets in a K98… since it seems to have worked well in 30×57 and 35×57?

  • #49430
     Larry Gibson 
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    Year late response……..sorry.

     

    I might have to get around to testing LvR powder in the 8×57 one of these days.  I have 190 and 220 gr cast to test it with.

    Larry Gibson

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