This topic contains 22 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Harter 7 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #29162
     eeyore 
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    Hi:

    I think this is my 2nd post at this fine oasis on the internet. The first being Hello and I have a project in mind. It’s time to get around to the project, a hunting rifle in 338 Federal. For reference there’s a link below for NOE’s 338 offerings.

    I’m leaning to 220gr and liking the ‘Loverin’ offering, 340-224-FN, in this line up. Would like to try driving them to 23000fps to 2400fps. Or not, I’m a noob at lead so I’m all ears.

    In an old post during the unveiling of the cartridge felix suggests a 16 inch twist would be good for the 338 Fed in a 220gr bullet. I asked a question years ago and got a response on 200gr bullet by two fellas I respect in the thread below suggesting a 16 inch and a 14 inch would be ok. Pretty consistent here… But kwk site suggests 18 inch for the 224gr bullet. So now I have to many choices.

    I guess I’m leanign toward 16 inch as a middle ground. Any and all thoughts appreciated. I really don’t have a big enough allowance for a do over if I can avoid it. Of course the results of all of this trials and tribulations will be conveyed here for future references.

    Thanks fellas for listening,

    Steve
    Oregon

    http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=33

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?5292-338-Federal

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?238609-Ideal-twist-rates-for-cast-boolits-vs-jacketed-Different-Why/page4

    http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/181010/rcbs-2-cavity-bullet-mold-33-200-fn-338-caliber-338-diameter-200-grain-flat-nose

    http://kwk.us/twist.html

  • #29174
     uber7mm 
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    Steve,

    The RCBS mould pictured in the Midway catalogue appears to be a non-Gas check model. For the velocities desired, you’ll most likely want a GC mold.

    Looks to be a fun project.

    Enjoy.

  • #29178
     eeyore 
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    Don’t ya hate it when some makes a new post and there’s no answers in it just questions!

    I know, the NOE offerings are more interesting and useful.

  • #29189
     Sgt. Mike 
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    eeyore,
    Factors determining twist rate
    1. length not the weight, as well as diameter of the bullet. Flat based can shoot in a slower twist versus their Boat tail counterpart as the FB is usually shorter for a given weight.
    2. Velocity has little effect
    3. temperature will effect twist rate colder requires faster twist hotter will allow a Slower twist.
    4. Altitude will effect twist rate ( for Oregon the mean altitude is 3,300 feet, also Higher Altitude such as the 11,239 ft for the hight point will allow a slower twist, sea level will require a faster twist)

    It is not a truely easy off the cuff answer as I don’t know the conditions that you intend to use the rifle.

    So with that let’s see

    I used the 338 230Gr. RF (Frankenstein) from NOE for this comparison I added .020″ to cover the gas check.
    here it is at 40 degrees

    Stability
    Input Data
    Caliber:0.338 inBullet Weight:230.0 gr
    Bullet Length:1.074 inPlastic Tip Length:0.000 in
    Muzzle Velocity:2400.0 ft/sBarrel Twist:18.0 in
    Temperature:40.0 °FPressure:30.84 in Hg
    Output Data
    Stability:1.587

    The SG is 1.5 the Military Like to use 1.4 or better as the optimum so lets see how this shoots at 80 degrees

    Stability
    Input Data
    Caliber:0.338 inBullet Weight:230.0 gr
    Bullet Length:1.074 inPlastic Tip Length:0.000 in
    Muzzle Velocity:2400.0 ft/sBarrel Twist:18.0 in
    Temperature:80.0 °FPressure:30.84 in Hg
    Output Data
    Stability:1.714

    We see a 1.7 SG factor

    Switching to a 340 224Gr. FN from NOE using 80 degrees we get

    Stability
    Input Data
    Caliber:0.338 inBullet Weight:224.0 gr
    Bullet Length:1.145 inPlastic Tip Length:0.000 in
    Muzzle Velocity:2400.0 ft/sBarrel Twist:18.0 in
    Temperature:80.0 °FPressure:30.84 in Hg
    Output Data
    Stability:1.392

    The SG is 1.392 which is definitely close enough to 1.4 to have stability
    Going to 40 degrees we get

    Stability
    Input Data
    Caliber:0.338 inBullet Weight:224.0 gr
    Bullet Length:1.145 inPlastic Tip Length:0.000 in
    Muzzle Velocity:2400.0 ft/sBarrel Twist:18.0 in
    Temperature:40.0 °FPressure:30.84 in Hg
    Output Data
    Stability:1.289

    SG is 1.2 Now 1.3 is sorta iffy especially if the Temps are colder than 40 degrees
    Now if I go to a 1-17.25″ Twist

    Stability
    Input Data
    Caliber:0.338 inBullet Weight:224.0 gr
    Bullet Length:1.145 inPlastic Tip Length:0.000 in
    Muzzle Velocity:2400.0 ft/sBarrel Twist:17.2 in
    Temperature:40.0 °FPressure:30.84 in Hg
    Output Data
    Stability:1.404

    Now we are stable but what about 10 degrees?

    Stability
    Input Data
    Caliber:0.338 inBullet Weight:224.0 gr
    Bullet Length:1.145 inPlastic Tip Length:0.000 in
    Muzzle Velocity:2400.0 ft/sBarrel Twist:17.2 in
    Temperature:10.0 °FPressure:30.84 in Hg
    Output Data
    Stability:1.319

    Now the calculation (miller formula) is gear toward Jacketed Boat tail so actually 1.319 should be plenty of stability

    Now what if I want to shoot jacketed with a 1-17.25 twist rate the length should be no longer than 1.135″ so which jacket bullet should I chose?

    CalibreManufacturerBulletStated WeightTrue WeightLength
    0.338HawkFP1801800.85
    0.338ReichenbergSpezial Jagd1541540.888
    0.338HornadyFP 33152002000.99
    0.338ReichenbergHDB Universal1501501.001
    0.338HawkRT2002001.029
    0.338DelsingSPFN 338200012002001.047
    0.338LEEC338-220-1R2202201.05
    0.338Barnes‘X’ S 338781601601.07
    0.338ReichenbergHDB Universal1701701.104
    0.338ReichenbergSpez Dr1901701.111
    0.338NormaORYX 686162302301.12
    0.338SpeerSP 24052002001.12
    0.338HornadySP 33102002001.138
    0.338Barnes‘X’ S 338801751751.15
    0.338HawkRT2302301.15
    0.338SpeerGRSLAM 24072252251.16
    0.338NorthForkBondedCore2002001.172
    0.338HornadyRN 33302502501.188
    0.338WoodleighPP WeldCore 56A2252251.189
    0.338NoslerPART SP 163372102101.2
    0.338Barnes‘X’ BT 338811851851.205
    0.338Barnes‘XLC’ BT 338541851851.205
    0.338SakoHammerHd 211F2502501.22
    0.338WoodleighSN WeldCore 562502501.226
    0.338Barnes‘TSX’ BT 338431851851.227
    0.338Barnes‘TTSX’ S 338731601601.23
    0.338SpeerGRSLAM 24082502501.23
    0.338HawkRT2502501.236
    0.338NoslerAccuBond 543741801801.24
    0.338SwiftA-Frame SS2252251.245
    0.338NoslerBalTip 331801801801.26
    0.338SierraSPBT 26102152151.27
    0.338DelsingSPFN 338250012502501.276
    0.338SpeerGrandSlam 24082502501.28
    0.338GS-CustomHV No.070 G5-BC1801801.283
    0.338ReichenbergHDB Universal2002001.287
    0.338WoodleighPP WeldCore 56B2502501.288
    0.338Barnes‘X’ S 338822002001.29
    0.338ImpalaRNFP KO Bullet2102101.292
    0.338GPA338S/217 Solid2172171.299
    0.338NoslerART SP 163362252251.3
    0.338NorthForkBondedCore2252251.31
    0.338SpeerBTSP 24062252251.31
    0.338ImpalaLWHV LS Bullet1651651.312
    0.338HornadySP 33202252251.316
    0.338NoslerBalTip 395952002001.32
    0.338GS-CustomHP No.0242002001.329
    0.338RUAGSM-HPBT Styx2482481.33
    0.338SpeerTBBC 17752252251.33
    0.338SpeerAGS TS 24142752751.33
    0.338WoodleighFMJ 572502501.334
    0.338CTBalSilTip 512002002001.335
    0.338SwiftA-Frame SS2502501.335
    0.338HawkRT2752751.34
    0.338NoslerBalTip 332002002001.34
    0.338NoslerAccubond 563822002001.34
    0.338NoslerBalSilTip 512002002001.34
    0.338NoslerPART RN 163382502501.34
    0.338Barnes‘MRX’ BT 338631851851.35
    0.338LapuaNaturalis LR 80202302301.35
    0.338Barnes‘X’ BT 338832102101.353
    0.338Barnes‘XLC’ BT 338562102101.353
    0.338HornadySP 33352502501.357
    0.338LapuaMira EB4312502501.358
    0.338Barnes‘TSX’ BT 338452102101.36
    0.338SpeerSSP 24112752751.364
    0.338Barnes‘X’ S 338852252251.37
    0.338Barnes‘XLC’ S 338552252251.37
    0.338CTFailSafe 532302302301.375
    0.338NoslerCT FailSafe 532302302301.375
    0.338NoslerPartGold 522802502501.375
    0.338NoslerPART SP 356442502501.375
    0.338SwiftScirocco2102101.393
  • #29190
     Sgt. Mike 
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    But what if I want to shoot the 300gr Sierria ??

    Stability
    Input Data
    Caliber:0.338 inBullet Weight:300.0 gr
    Bullet Length:1.736 inPlastic Tip Length:0.000 in
    Muzzle Velocity:2400.0 ft/sBarrel Twist:10.5 in
    Temperature:10.0 °FPressure:30.84 in Hg
    Output Data
    Stability:1.433

    We see that because the bullet is 1.736″ in length we can us as slow as a 1-10.5″ twist at 10 degrees.

    If I went to a 1-16″ twist with 340 224Gr. FN from NOE what is the coldest temp I can have stability?

    Stability
    Input Data
    Caliber:0.338 inBullet Weight:224.0 gr
    Bullet Length:1.145 inPlastic Tip Length:0.000 in
    Muzzle Velocity:2400.0 ft/sBarrel Twist:16.0 in
    Temperature:-30.0 °FPressure:30.84 in Hg
    Output Data
    Stability:1.403

    Minus 30 degrees hmmmmm
    What is the coldest I can shoot a 1-18 ” with the same bullet

    Stability
    Input Data
    Caliber:0.338 inBullet Weight:224.0 gr
    Bullet Length:1.145 inPlastic Tip Length:0.000 in
    Muzzle Velocity:2400.0 ft/sBarrel Twist:18.0 in
    Temperature:85.0 °FPressure:30.84 in Hg
    Output Data
    Stability:1.405

    Hmm 85 degrees to have 1.4 SG

    What would I twist ? I would go the 1-17.25″ as I prefer to twist as slow as I can this would afford me to shoot jacketed and cast but IF my intention was to ONLY shoot cast I would go 1-18″ personally others will give different advice, Arkansas summers are around 90 degrees plus and I usually don’t hunt anymore except with my challenger 😉 I usually target shoot.

    Tim would lean toward a bit faster (1-16″ im sure) just in case the manufacturer is a little off on the twist (slower than listed happens sometime rare though) this is a guess as he and I have not discussed this one. PM him for his thoughts

    The 1-16″ is not a bad choice at all and is a safe one. it will sorta over spin but if your shooting in the coldest of temps then a faster twist is needed

    Me I will set a rifle up for a certain task and conditions.

    Most shooters want a broad spectrum just bear in mind that the shorter the projectile the slower the twist rate ( hint the RCBS should be shorter than the NOE 224 that I use because I can lookup the length) .

    Cast usually takes a slower twist in stride than jacketed does.

  • #29191
     Goodsteel 
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    There is a lot of water under the bridge since I posted in that thread. I have learned that the RPMTH for larger diameter bullets is lower than for smaller diameter bullets. Strange but true.
    At this point, I agree wholeheartedly with Larry Gibson: 16 twist is the fastest you want to go.
    18 twist might be a better choice for an exclusive cast bullet rifle.

    The big question is: where do you plan to get a slow twist 338 barrel?

    The slowest available from Krieger or Shillen is 1-10.
    If I could venture a suggestion? I still hold with my three groove recommendation. If I were you, I would take a 308 caliber rifle and send it to JES Reborring. He cuts the riflings by hand and can hook you up with almost any twist you want for $225 (price as of earlier this year).

  • #29194
     Sgt. Mike 
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    Krieger does do custom twist, but there is a penalty. It is months of wait time.
    Probably 6 months or more just guessing before shipping, then add the time till threaded and chambered.

    But off the shelf yep 1-10 for a Shilen or Krieger.
    JES is definitely faster.

    The fastest I’ve ever got a Krieger is three months when a special twist is specified that was before 2007. Today there is more demand.

    https://kriegerbarrels.com/twist

  • #29195
     oldblinddog 
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    By slowest twist: Krieger will make a 10; Bartlien and Lilja will make a 12; and Douglas will make a 14. I’m sure there are others but I would go to Douglas if I were building the rifle. I considered the .338 Federal but decided on a .338-06 instead. Wait times may affect your decision. I called Douglas and ordered a #3 contour chambered, cut to length, and crowned for $314.00 and had it in my hand two weeks to the day from the call. And it shoots great too (with the 200 gr. Speer bullet).

    I have this mold from Accurate but have not been able to work up much of a load for it yet. Too much work and not enough time off.

  • #29196
     Sgt. Mike 
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    Have not shot a Douglas in years, when did you order the Douglas?

  • #29198
     oldblinddog 
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    That was back in October I believe. Had it back from the smith that installed and headspaced it by middle of January. I failed to mention in the previous post that Douglas threaded for my Mauser action too.

    I’m also shooting one of theirs that is more than 20 years old that was originally a .338-06 AI that I had rechambered to .338 Win Mag when I got tired of AI brass and all the headaches that go with it. It has less than 500 rounds total through it so this is a good comparison of then and now. The old one is great and the new one may turn out to be just as good.

  • #29200
     eeyore 
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    Appreciate the teaching here, I’ll be pondering and penciling for a little while longer. Clearly have a few parameters to hammer out first before spending money. As always engineering anything is a series of compromises. Sgt Mike, you called me off trying to quell an arguement among some of the big dogs a few years back. Just don’t like to see good people get into it. I think I told you thanks then, but if I didn’t thanks for the level head and teaching the pup to sit and stay!

    I talked to JES a while ago to see if he had time and interest and what to avoid for donor rifles. He seemed happy to help and was patient with my questions, nice fellow. He’s just a couple hours up the road from here so that’s an easy choice.

    This will be cast only project, I have another in that caliber that I really like for jacketed bullets. Tore up some tendons in my shoulder so have been off the heavy stuff since. Go to the doctor again in a couple weeks, thinking I’ll be missing this season so the project is in lieu of.

  • #29211
     Larry Gibson 
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    I’ll stick with the 16″ twist recommendation. It will stabilize w/o a great increase in RPM all the bullets mentioned at lower velocities than the max 23-2400 fps to OP wants. That gives a bit of leeway. 2000 fps is only 90,000 RPM and 2400 fps only runs 108,000 fps. That is well under the RPM Threshold.

    Larry Gibson

  • #29213
     Larry Gibson 
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    Might check with Broughton if a new barrel of the best quality is wanted. I know they do 16″ twists.

    Also i woul recommend a 26″ barrel if 23-2400 fps is wanted with cast in the small capacity 338 Fed. It takes psi to push to that velocity, especially with a heavier cast bullet. You’ll get that velocity at lower psi with a 26″ barrel vs a shorter one. Less psi with a longer time/pressure curve is gentler on cast bullets and more conducive to accuracy.

    Larry Gibson

  • #29228
     Sgt. Mike 
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    eeyore;n8510 wrote: Appreciate the teaching here,……… Sgt Mike, you called me off trying to quell an arguement among some of the big dogs a few years back. Just don’t like to see good people get into it. I think I told you thanks then, but if I didn’t thanks for the level head and teaching the pup to sit and stay!
    …………………………………..

    Eeyore,
    As I recall you did say thanks and again your welcome Sir.

    Hopefully some of my long hand above is clear and is right along with what you needed for your project. If I can help you any further let me know, I like your ideas on the project the .338 is a interesting bore size.
    I calculated the stability which if the barrel is on good quality accuracy will be right with the stability.

    Larry is correct on the Broughton several President’s Hundred shooter that I know swear by the Broughton they have. Other swear by the Krieger. Bottom line a quality barrel is a quality barrel
    I would suggest a little heavier than normal profile as it will help in being steady probably something along a magnum profile ( in a Broughton a #10 Hunter would be my choice for a skinniest barrel weight at 6 lb vs the #3 Light sporter at 3.25 lbs, if weight is a issue I’d go #5 Lt Varmint Sporter at 4.25 lbs). But a lighter gun kicks more sooooo

    Some might advise different contours which is fine just giving you what I think would be a good choice in a bench or varmint gun LOL I want truck axles everytime

  • #29230
     Sgt. Mike 
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    oldblinddog;n8508 wrote: That was back in October I believe. Had it back from the smith that installed and headspaced it by middle of January. I failed to mention in the previous post that Douglas threaded for my Mauser action too.

    I’m also shooting one of theirs that is more than 20 years old that was originally a .338-06 AI that I had rechambered to .338 Win Mag when I got tired of AI brass and all the headaches that go with it. It has less than 500 rounds total through it so this is a good comparison of then and now. The old one is great and the new one may turn out to be just as good.

    glad to hear his quality hasn’t slipped any. Did his son take over yet?
    $244 to $383.00 before shipping depending on profile is not bad price either

  • #29259
     oldblinddog 
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    I don’t know if his son is running the business or not. Seems they are the same as ever. They make a great product!

  • #29278
     Sgt. Mike 
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    Thanks for the information Sir.

  • #29300
     eeyore 
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    Appreciate the responses. Will report back with details when I have some. Thank you!

  • #30604
     eeyore 
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    Picked up a Ruger 308 with a 22″ barrel that will be going in for surgery when I can get a minute to call Jesse and run it up to him. I know what you’re thinking. Dang cheap noobie! This is a hunting rifle, don’t need to draw bugs on paper all day. We’ll see what happens.

    Spent a few hours at Berger’s twist calculator. The worst scenario I can come up with for NOE’s 340 224gr FN is out my front door, record cold in December and I can only get decent groups at 1900fps. SG=1.52 with a 16″ twist. Sounds good. Swede’s Frankenstein and Ranch Dog are shorter and pencil out ok too. Will try those in due time I suppose too.

    Here we go…

  • #30613
     Goodsteel 
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    Git er did eeyore!!!!

  • #30925
     eeyore 
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    Jesse called, the rifle is done.

    Done here, will report back in the appropriate sub forum when I have something to say.

    Thank you gentlemen for your time.

  • #68856
     eeyore 
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    Two years ago I ran a patch or two through this project to clean it up and oil it.  It is still sitting in the safe.  Picked it up from Jesse back then.  Said he ran two 250gr RN through it and told me they went through the same hole.  If you’ve ever shakin’ hands with Mr. Ocumpaugh you’d walk away knowing in your gut the man would sooner explode on contact than tell a lie.

    So no news on the project!  But a bunch of others are cleaned up the 270, the 45acp, the kitchen, the shop, the vineyard etc. Hopefully this winter I’ll get to the 338Fed.

    Have an ugly laminate stock for it that will need to be worked to fit properly.  My first time bedding a stock. Will I get it right, who knows?  But like most of us in this endeavour we plough ahead for no other reason that to learn something.

    Anyone here any more?

     

     

  • #68858
     Harter 
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    I check in almost every day . Not doing much shooting lately . Moved cross country and had some hangups getting settled . Things aren’t going according to even my most liberal plans .

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