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    • #24548
      Larry Gibson
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      Decided to chase accuracy ala CBA matches in “Heavy Rifle” class using the 30 XCB. The bullets were cast of #2 alloy, WQ’d. visually culled and then weight sorted. They had the Hornady GCs seated and were lubed with 2500+ in a .311 H&I die in a Lyman 450 Lubrasizer. They were loaded in LC92 prepped cases primed with WLR primers. I tested 2 powders; H4831SC and RL22. Charges of each tested were 46, 46.5, 47 and 47.5 gr which was slightly compressed. The bullets were seated to the leade. Powder charges were thrown with a Lyman 55.

      The rifle is my Winchester M70 Target .308W. It has a little over 3000 jacketed match loads through it. I switched out scopes putting a Bausch & Lomb 6×24 Elite 4000 scope on it. I did that for a couple reasons besides it being a very fine scope. First is the scope has 1/8 moa adjustments which is a real benefit when shooting for score on the CBA score target. Second and obvious reason is the 24X.

      The start load of 46 gr H4831SC was used to zero the scope at 100 yards so the group was non conclusive which was expected. There was two 5 shot groups; one at .55″ and the other, after a scope adjustment, at .83″. Also expected based on previous test data of the same load the ES and SD would not be the best. The velocity was 2383 fps with the ES at 60 fps and the SD at 18 fps. Still not that bad and this load may get tested again.

      Velocities are instrumental at 15′ from the muzzle taken with an Oehler 35P chronograph.

      H4831SC;

      The 46.5 gr group ran 2431 fps with the ES at 41 fps and the SD at 15 fps. Group size for the 10 shots was 1.15″. Overlaid on the CBA 100 yard score target there was a potential 98-4X score.

      The 47 gr group ran 2450 fps with the ES at 42 fps and the SD at 12 fps. Group size for the 10 shots was 1.02″. Overlaid on the CBA 100 yard score target there was a potential 98-1X score.

      The 47.5 gr group ran 2491 fps with the ES at 45 fps and the SD at 12 fps. Group size for the 10 shots was 1.1″. Overlaid on the CBA 100 yard score target there was a potential 99-1X score.

      RL 22;

      The 46 gr load started off with excellent internals with a velocity of 2339 fps, an ES at 28 fps and an SD of 8 fps. However the group size was 1.43″. I had another 10 rounds of the same load and chronographed them consecutive to the 1st 10 shots. The 20 shots gave a velocity of 2331 fps with an ES of 58 fps and the SD at 15 fps. Nine shots of the second test string went into a tidy .88″ group but there was a flyer making the 10 shot group 1.65″. Something to be said for a sufficient sample size.

      The 46.5 gr group ran 2358 fps with the ES at 35 fps and the SD at 13 fps. The very good internals were reflected in a 10 shot group size of .769″. Overlaid on the CBA score target there was a potential score of 100-4X.

      The 47 gr load ran 2363 fps with the ES at 61 fps and the SD at 17 fps. The otherwise also very good internals were spoiled by the 1st shot of the string which was 28 fps faster than the next highest. none the less the 10 shot group was .878″. Overlaid on the CBA score target there was a potential score of 99-4X.

      As has been found before any slight compression of RL22 and accuracy becomes some what erratic. Regardless of the excellent internals with the velocity at 2406 fps, the ES at 32 fps and the SD at 10 fps the 10 shot group opened to 1.55″.

      Interesting to note looking at last years CBA Nationals the winning 10 shot aggregate (average of two 10 shot groups) at 100 yards was .847″. Computing the aggregate of those two 10 shot RL22 groups we find them to be .823″…….interesting……….

      Next is to load up 25 rounds each of the 46.5 and 47 gr charges of both powders and test at 200 yards.

      Larry Gibson

    • #24551
      Wright Arms
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      You DO realize this is not possible, right? The “Flat Earth Society” members ‘over there’ say so!

      Seriously, those are awesome figures to contemplate. Nicely done!

    • #24553
      Goodsteel
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      Very solid Larry. Good quality rifle, ammo and groups.

    • #24559
      bjornb
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      This is great. And it’s got me stoked on trying the same thing, however I’ll be using Felix chambered in 30×57.
      Any particular reason why you went with the 308 vs. the 30×60 XCB?

    • #24563
      Larry Gibson
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      bjornb;n2780 wrote: …………Any particular reason why you went with the 308 vs. the 30×60 XCB?

      Several reasons actually.

      I got that M70 some years back and shot quite a bit of long range High Power matches at 600 – 1000 yards with it. But times and interests have changed and I don’t shoot any HP matches anymore other than the local 300 yard match. I have a .223 Savage Competition M112 I use for that. I really like the M70 and it was just sitting in the safe all forlorn and getting extremely jealous of Dawn…….

      Even though I also plan on working on some pure accuracy loads with Dawn lower velocity is not what she was conceived of nor built for. She performs as well as I ever expected at 2900 fps which was what I wanted her for. Additionally the forend of the sporter stock is not competitive in bench rest for the finest and most consistent accuracy. I would have to either put her in a more “bench rest” style stock or modify the current stock for the forend adaptor goodsteel made. Problem is the B & C Premier stock has a metal bedding liner that runs up through the forend. Drilling for the screw stud (rear) for the adaptor would weaken that. Probably a different stock, if I decide to use Dawn, is in order.

      I’ve also considered using my .308W Palma rifle as it also, like the M70 target, it’s stock is more conducive to bench rest style competitive shooting.

      And lastly the idiots over on CBF with their 3rd long winded pontificating tell us nothing of value thread in as many years on “how to shoot HV in a stock rifle” are still wanting everyone to believe only they know the dark secrets and can shoot cast bullets at HV. No one else knows anything and if you come up with any accomplishment there’s always just “one more thing” you don’t know about and can’t do. That’s just so anal……so since I have already demonstrated HV with a “stock rifle” (7.8, 9, 10 and 12″ twist rifles is not difficult to achieve. It does require attention to detail, using good alloys and other components and learning how to cast a really good bullet though. Shooting cast bullets at HV is not as difficult and it doesn’t require all the mumbo jumbo the HV experts at CBF, who have actually demonstrated any ability, would have everyone believe it is. Also “getting the RPM Threshold out of your mind” is stupid. If you don’t understand what is happening to the bullet in flight you won’t be able to adequately deal with it. The bastardization explanations those “CBF experts give of what they think the RPM threshold is provides no wonder they don’t understand nor believe it. Hell listening to their explanation I wouldn’t believe it either. I’ve stated and posted what the RPM Threshold is and how it affects bullets, especially cast bullets, in very simple and easy to understand terms numerous times. Even then the RPM Threshold will always be there. Whether or not anyone believes or doesn’t understand the RPM Threshold you better believe it will always be there if one attempts HV cast bullet shooting with rifles.

      In the examples so far posted in this thread I have again pushed the RPM Threshold up to over 2500 fps (150,000) RPM while still maintain moa accuracy with 10 shots with a “stock rifle”. However, the best accuracy, in this test, came in at 142,000 RPM which is the top end of the “RPM Threshold”. That is again as I have consistently stated. Still I managed, also as consistently stated, to push the RPM Threshold up some (to 2500 fps) while still maintaining excellent accuracy. No secret mumbo jumbo and demonstrated results.

      I’ll continue development with the M70 Target rifle as I plan on shooting a few CBA matches over in Phoenix. I already have shot one match (Modified Military) and will continue with that also. They alternate months between the military and commercial BR cast bullet matches. A bit of a drive but not bad and some beautiful scenery. I’ll also delve more into HV in 10″ twists (M70 .308W and M70 XTR 30-06) with the 30 XCB bullet as time allows. Of course the results will be posted here in a thread on such in 10″ twist rifles.

      Larry Gibson

    • #24565
      dverna
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      Damn impressive

    • #24618
      Pasturedrag
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      Good work Larry, very impressive work you are doing here.

    • #24626
      Larry Gibson
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      Bjorn

      Mulled it over last night and I think I’ll just try the same loads in Dawn with the 16″ twist. Might work out well in Felix in 30×57 as that cartridge has only a gr or two more case capacity than the .308W?

      Larry Gibson

    • #24912
      Larry Gibson
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      Made it to the range with some of the 46.5 gr loads of RL22. Thought I’ve give the 100 CBA score target a try. Never shot that target before and have to admit it is a tough target. I copied 6 of them from the CBA site and posted them at 100 yards; 5 for record and 1 sighter target as per CBA rules.. Had a 6 – 8 mph switching wind from 5 – 7 o’clock. You can see the sighter target )middle bottom) which only has 5 shots on it. The last 2 sighters are the 9s. I made a sight correction and fired for record; 2 shots at each record target. Obviously the M70 was not centered over the “X” dot as there were a couple sight changes. Even with that I managed a 96 score.

      having a picture of that score I fired a second 10 shots for record. Again I was tweaking the scope adjustments by making sight adjustments between the 2 shots on each target. I was chasing my tail doing that and ended up with a 95 as you can see from the next picture.

      After the record score fire I decided to put a 5th shot into each of the 1st 4 targets to make a CBA 5 shot group “Agg”. While not truly indicative because of the sight adjustments between targets with the previous 4 shots it would give an idea. Thus the next picture shows targets 1 thru 4 with 5 shot groups.

      All in all I was happy with my 1st foray into CBA shooting with a “Hvy Rifle”. I had a 100 yard score of 191 and a 100 yard 5 shot “Agg” of .949. Looking at the CBA Nationals last year that would have put me in the middle of the “Hvy Rifle” scores. I also then had 10 shots left so I shot a 10 shot group at 200 yards. It measured 2.512″ Given the 1.35″ size of the largest 5 shot group (5th target) that shows very good linear expansion of the load from 100 to 200 yards.

      Next is to load 50 rounds of the 46.5 RL22 load and shoot 5 shot groups on the CBA score target centering them up for a positive 100 yard zero. All in all it was a satisfying day at the range.

      Larry Gibson

    • #25713
      Larry Gibson
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      The CBA Phoenix boys are holding a commercial rifle BR match this Sunday (13 March) over at the Ben Avery Range in Phoenix. Guess I’ll make the long drive and shoot the match with this M70 using this H4831SC load. Did a bit of tweaking and this load is giving consistent sub moa 10 shot groups with excellent internals. Here’s the final group I shot today with this load comparing it to the RL22 loads. Overlaying the 10 shot group on the CBA 100 yard score target I get consistent 98 – 100 scores. This group would potentially have scored a 99. However, I’ve found that shooting only 2 shots on each of 5 score bullseye targets Can be a little more difficult as it requires attention to your position as you move from bull to bull. We shall see. They shoot 40 shots for score; 20 at 100 yards and 20 at 200 yards. Should be fun anyways.

      Larry Gibson

    • #25715
      Screwbolts
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      Great looking target, good luck Sunday.

      Ken

    • #25717
      Goodsteel
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      Stomp em Larry……….Stomp em flat as a flitter!!!

    • #25718
      Anonymous
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      Nice looking group. Good luck Sunday.

    • #25727
      Artful
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      Good Luck Sunday

    • #25730
      Anonymous
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      Hey Larry — What type of conversations do you get when you go to these shoots and they find out you are using Cast and How often do you beat them ??

      I don’t have time (working and no shoots near by) but when I do shot cast at my club I do get some funny looks

      One time I had some odd and ends from several boxes I wanted to shoot up so I could reload the brass and as a last string put 20 plus rounds as fast as I could load mags and shoot
      (5 round limit in semi) M1a Clone on to a single target (100yds) and showed it to the guy on the end bench that was shooting at the same time and He was impressed and his jaw dropped when he found out it was cast to boot

    • #25737
      Larry Gibson
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      This is only my 2nd match over at Phoenix. The 1st CBA match I shot was just last month and was a military rifle match. After the usual pleasantries and surprise I was driving so far to shoot with them the conversations centered around the rifles, loads and what cast bullet were being used. A bit of politics was also discussed as AZs presidential preference election is coming up. It was a good bunch of guys. Shooting their matches is still a learning experience as to the rules and what is allowed in each class. For example this month my M70 would qualify as for the “Production Rifle” class except the CBA rules say the barrel cannot be turned down to reduced weight. My M70 barrel hasn’t been turned down to reduce weight but the last inch was turned down for the front sight base (I used the rifle for NRA matches) to go on. The base is still on the rifle. I will have to see how they judge that. The next class is “Heavy Rifle” which is custom rifles not more than 14 lbs. I’m alright shooting in either class.

      Last month with my M39 Finn 7.62x54R I did ok but I was not prepared. I wanted to shoot “Modified Military” class but didn’t want to put a scope (max allowed is 6X) back on my M1903A1 NM as I’ve been shooting a few 300 yard matches (600 yard reduced target) with it. I’ve had a scope mount for the M39 for several years so I D&T’d it and mounted a Weaver T-6 (Original) on it just a week before the match. I only had time to get a quick 100 yard zero with it before the match. I also didn’t do any real “match” level loading as I just didn’t have time. I used some C312-185s and as Murphy would have it I used the wrong load. It was too weak and I could tell ignition was erratic. the match was 20 shots on 2 NRA 100/600 reduced targets and 20 shots on the NRA 200/600 reduced target at 200 yards. I ended up doing ok at 100 yards but the load really fell apart at 200 yards with several rounds dropping low out of what was a poor group to begin with. When I got home I loaded up the right load and tested them with the old bullets and would have done much better. We live and learn and I never claimed to be infallible. However, I have a bunch of freshly cast bullets aging. They will be used next month with the correct load.

      I always get a lot of comments when shooting cast bullets at the range here in LHC, especially with the M70, Dawn and my Palma rifle. I had shot several 10 shot groups close to or under 1″ yesterday. There were 4 guys shooting a couple varmint 22-250s and a couple ARs. I saw them looking at my target and when they came back they all asked what I was shooting. when I told them cast bullets one of them said “yah can’t shoot those very fast or they lead the barrel”. I just said “Oh”. Then while we were shooting one of them came over to ask about the Oehler M35P. When he saw the “low” velocity of the cast loads (2340 – 2360 fps) and that’s when his jaw really dropped. When I told him what the Palma rifle and Dawn did he went over and told the one guy not so politely that he was full of s**t about cast bullets. Then they all came back over during the next cease fire and I explained what was being done. They were all amazed and dumb founded because they had all read and believed the myths about cast bullets, especially at high velocity.

      Dawn really gets a lot of attention at the range, especially when I’m shooting out to 300 yards with the 30 XCB at 2900 fps. Even have had a couple CBF members marvel at it and suggested they post what they’d seen. They didn’t want to mention anything on the forum because they didn’t want to get hounded…….I figured them for hillary voters……..

      Larry Gibson

    • #25752
      Screwbolts
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      ..I figured them for hillary voters…….. I think you have a good analogy there!!

    • #25754
      Smoke4320
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      looks like some fine reloading and shooting to me

    • #25756
      dverna
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      Awesome Larry. Good luck on the 13th.

      The other forum has gotten worse. Got a warning a few weeks ago when I commented on a BS post by one of the experts on the HV thread. That thread has died BTW

    • #25793
      blackthorn
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      dverna;n4179 wrote: Awesome Larry. Good luck on the 13th.

      The other forum has gotten worse. Got a warning a few weeks ago when I commented on a BS post by one of the experts on the HV thread. That thread has died BTW

      You are right! No warning here but I had a very carefully worded post disappear. Interestingly there were several complimentary comments tendered on that post but my post disappeared along with at least one other. Essentially all I did was suggest that references to what had been done by someone’s cousin, friend or acquaintance, tendered without proof, was less than helpful! This was also on the HV thread. Oh yes—I may have commented on those who sit in the weeds and snipe.

    • #25798
      Goodsteel
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      When micromanaging moral relativism to a person by person basis, then allowing it to coexist with managerial bias, becomes the moral high ground for a particular manager, you have the current state of a certain other forum in a nut shell.

      What do you call it when in order to prove you are not biased toward anyone, especially toward those who happen to get ahead by functioning to a true moral code of ethics vs. those who haven’t got the morals of an ally cat, you actually ban those who operate with truth and courage (even if they did nothing to deserve it) and promote those who have proven themselves to be scum?

      Some call it socialism. I call it moral suicide.

      Why are there so many in leadership who feel compelled to live out the cliche’ of running something they got from someone else into the ground?
      Really sad and despicable.

    • #25850
      DeadWoodDan
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      Can’t wait to see Larry’s results!!

    • #25870
      Larry Gibson
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      Had a great time. It’s a good bunch of guys there that shoot. While the rules are adhered to the matches are run informally . The drive over takes 3 hrs and 20 minutes +/- on a Sunday morning so I leave home at 0415 and arrived a little after 0730. That’s about when everyone else starts arriving and setting up. The BR range at Ben Avery has a lot of benchrest, perhaps a hundred(?). We set up on the left side and a bunch of regular bench resters set up on the right end. They put out the usual array of wind flags which are mostly a vane with a couple 3 – 4′ streamers of engineer tape attached to the tail of the vane. That was all there was to judge the wind by as the range is a 300 yard range and is very barren and devoid totally of any other thing to indicate wind direction of speed. The CBA rules state; “Calibrated wind measuring devices are prohibited.”

      As you can see from the attached CBA BR score target it is a tough target. The same target is used at both 100 and 200 yards with the scoring for each range as shown. The dot is the “X” for both ranges. At 100 yards the 10 ring is a mere .75″ and at 200 yards The 10 ring (the 100 yard 9 ring) is 1.44″. There are 6 targets used in a 10 shot string. One is a sighter target and the other 5 are for score. One shot is fired in sequence at each score target and then repeated for 10 shots with 2 shots on each record target. Thus you have to shift between targets for each shot. That is much different that just shooting a 10 shot group at the same target. You have 15 minutes for unlimited sighters and 10 record shots. At both ranges you shoot 2 record strings for a total possible score of 200 at each range. Noting from the small size of the scoring rings you have to be shooting sub moa in the .8″s to consistently hit the 10 ring. What a good time!

      A 5 mph wind will move the 30 XCB at 2360 fps .84″ at 100 yards and 3.61″ at 200 yards. So there I was only able to guess at the wind speed and direction. Turns out I guessed wrong most of the time………But I still did pretty good. Over on CBA there’s been some recent discussion on “going to the nationals” with several thinking they needed to shoot in the 190s to go. Looking at the past scores from the CBA nationals that is a good assessment. So how did I do? I think there was only one other shooter shooting in Production or Heavy class(?) and he was using a Savage Target SS .308W. Most every on else was shooting Unrestricted rifle class. At 100 yards I ended up dropping 6 or 7 points so I shot a 193 or 194. The wind definitely got me on several but also changing position to the next target caught me twice as I knew I was not consistent as soon and I felt the minimal recoil. I felt really good about that. At 200 yards I really got caught either underestimating the wind or overestimating it. I also was consistently wrong on the exact direction of the wind. as from the angle I was looking at the far right wind vanes What I thought was a 5 o’clock 4 -5 mph wind was really a 3:30 – 4 o’clock 4 – 7 mph wind. And did I mention the wind completely switched direction 3 times during the 200 yard match………the home court boys were also having their problems with it but they were dealing with it better than I was. I ended up dropping 20 points at 200 yards……not good……Probably ended up in the middle of the pack overall. Won’t know until Dan tallies the scores and sends out the results.

      Still I had a great time and am looking forward to the next match.

      Larry Gibson

    • #25874
      DeadWoodDan
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      Thanks for the quick response and get some rest. I didn’t realize how much wind drift can affect placement with this boolit, guess my thinking was the weight would help. Guess I have alot to learn!

    • #25881
      Larry Gibson
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      It’s worse with the “standard” bullets used at 1500 – 1600 fps. The 311299 at 1850 – 1900 fps is about the same. A couple shooters who had been shooting at Ben Avery for years did pretty well at 200 yards. They both said they used hold off and knew how much by watching the wind vanes the jacketed bullet BR shooter had up. They both said it was a real learning curve for them also. I’ve plotted the hold off for the correct wind mph and direction and it jives perfectly with what I should have been holding. All part of the “game”.

      Larry Gibson

    • #25896
      Scharfschuetze
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      Looks like you’re still having fun Larry. I well remember your Model 70 (when it was a 308) when you were shooting with us in the PNW. Hope to see you this summer at the range.

    • #25915
      Menner
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      Good Times Larry
      my Last CBA Match I shot a 362 ( have only shot a couple Matches hope to shoot more often this year)
      I am pushing the 30XCB bullet at 1850 through a 308 10 twist
      You are right it is a great group of guys at Atglen Pa. is were I shoot and yes it is a tough target but it is a LOT of fun
      I get to sleep in I leave at 5:30 to get there about 8:00
      Tony

    • #25921
      Goodsteel
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      Very nice Larry! Darn good shooting for just walking onto an unknown course and having at it. Good times!

    • #25923
      ken campbell iowa
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      enjoyed your report larry … that 200 yard wind is a bugger … might change directions a few times on the way out there … and then mix in changing from target to target … i like the score games more than group shooting … you actually have to ” hit ” something … more stories, please !

      ken

    • #25925
      Bullseye67
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      I read the first planning/testing report with anticipation for Sundays results. Sounds like a lot of fun! Wind drives me around the bend, steady OK, gusts not so good. The area you are in is where I spend several weeks-months during the winter. Reading your results wants me want to bring my “toys” and have some fun. “They” seem to have issues with bringing components across the line. Last time I was planning to shoot in Montana, they were frowning on reloads and wanted sealed factory boxes with a current store receipt. Kinda takes the fun out of it.

    • #26118
      Blammer
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      larry, what dia nose is on your 30xcb’s? how much do they wt?

    • #26124
      Larry Gibson
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      There is no nose with a diameter on the 30 XCB as with a bore rider’s nose for example. That was a major part of the design feature goodsteel and I worked out; the nose ogive begins immediately at the front edge of the bearing surface and follows the angle of the leade. The ogive continues to taper to the small meplat. Thus the nose is very short and the is no portion of it the “rides the bore”.

      Cast of Lyman #2 alloy my visual and weight sorted run 158.1 to 158.5 gr naked. Fully dressed with a Hornady GC and 2500+ lube they weigh 164 gr +/-.

      Larry Gibson

    • #26156
      Blammer
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      I asked because I was looking at NOE’s drawing he posted, the numbers were fuzzy so I had to ask.

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