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    • #26331
      kungfustyle
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      I have a 1 in 12 twist 223 that I was thinking about casting for. I’ve read the “how to make a grown man cry” That’s why I’m asking the questions before I get started. OK is it possible to load a 223 w/ a 45g or so cast bullet and push it to about 1200fps as a 22 LR replacement? using the site http://kwk.us/twist.html a .465 bullet with a .224 diameter at 1200 fps out requires at least a 1 in 13 twist to stabilize, so I’m good there. Is it feasible to push lead with out a gas check in a 223? Or should I go with a 55 or 60 grain mold gas check it and run it up to 1700 to 2200 fps? Looking forward to your input. Thanks, Jeff
      This is for a TC Venture bolt rifle.

    • #26335
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      Here’s my experience with AR family cartridges.
      A quick qualifier I defeated the 9mm and 40 S&W and had 6 yr of casting success behind me doing all of the normal things with great success. My fist 22 was a 222 Rem with an unchecked Bator . My 1st surprise came when all the factory 50 clocked 3200 + the 2nd was when a start load went over 2100 with the 50 gr Bator over Unique. I have s one 65 gr NOE 22-55 copies that run 2500 with consistency equal to GI 55 gr ina GI AR . Lastly with the sub sonic craze on I had to try to get my 7×6.8 mildcat sub sonic at 3.5 gr of Unique with a 150 gr NOE hunter it finally fell below 1100fps .

      My point being that with these little cases and a bullet as light as you have it may be a challenge to back it down far enough to get it to go that slow. Doing all of the normal things with cast it will shoot fine and have a muzzle report similar to 22 RF but I think that with a 40 gr bullet you be surprised by how low you have to get the charges to get it subsonic. .

    • #26341
      Anonymous
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      I read the first post and thought — Shooting steel –Hens, chicks, Pigs and Rams (lower weight / slower velocity= less damage to steel)
      From my experience in 223 in a ar — Gas check, Water drop (for less bullet damage on feed ramp)

      If you are just plinking at paper, etc,— cast in a AR has a lot lower sound level than full velocity jacketed rounds
      the heaver they are make it a bit easier to get full function.
      you can also use Dacron as a filler with some Powders to get a better burn and more constiant results

    • #26342
      kungfustyle
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      The rifle that I’m loading for is a TC venture bolt action. So what I’m seeing is 86 the idea of pb cast and go for hard gas checked? That’s what the Lyman cast handbook suggests. I wanted to to do this with as little prep on the bullets as possible. If I have to get a gc maker and make the checks or buy them that is going to add to the cost. I know that is only about $.02/check but add in the time of casting and $.08 for a jacketed round this may be the wrong tree.

    • #26350
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      Not at all . .I see no reason why you can’t shoot them as cast . UN checked . I’ve found however that my 1968 lot of Unique at 6.0 with the 65 gr 22-55 just ran way faster than suggested by the book and that as a direct replacement for a 22 RF it would likely be well below the 1700 fps 44 gr start load of 5.5 . Probably in the neighborhood of 3.0 Unique

      I’m still in awe at the efficiency of these tiny cases . I grew up “no replacement for displacement ” and while I ain’t towing a 5th wheel with a smart car these little rice rocket like cases get the job done for cheap. I mean it takes 3 gr of Unique to get a bullet to clear the muzzle of my 06′ but will run 900 fps in the 6.8 with a 150 so it should be a RF replacement at that with a 40 gr bullet in a 223.

    • #26375
      GhostHawk
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      I do both, slight caveat here in that I shoot them in a handi rifle single shot.

      But I actually have 3 loads for .223, a jacketed bullet load that is not much below factory levels.

      A 55 grain bator bullet load with gas check that I shoot over moderate amounts of Red Dot. But I don’t have an action to cycle.

      And the same 55 gr bator boolit without gas check around 1350-1375 fps over a smaller charge of Red Dot.

      It can be done. The hard part is doing it and still cycling your action.

    • #26380
      kungfustyle
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      Ghosthawk that is what I’m looking for. I would be happy to get anther mold, I just didn’t want to get into gas checking the lead and wanted to keep it down in velocity. If that is possible, it would be a fun project.

    • #26381
      kungfustyle
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      Hodgdon’s web site lists Tighgroup at 3.1g for a 55g fmj at 1064 fps. That’s only 4k on the cup. That is what I was looking to do with a cast bullet.

    • #26397
      Larry Gibson
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      I’ve been shooting cast bullets in the .223/5.56 cartridge in rifles of all sorts since ’72. I currently use the 225107, 225415, 225438, 225462 and the MP 227-65. I have also shot several other designs. I have shot them from 300 fps to 3000 fps out of .223 rifles. My experience is such;

      Most all .22 cal CF rifles will have a groove depth of .003 or less. That in and of itself poses some problems and is why harder bullets most often perform better. We know now that cast bullets are reduced to less than groove diameter when fired because they are swaged down by the lube and residue in the barrel. How much they are swaged down depends on numerous factors. Point is the shallower the grooves the sooner velocity wise this becomes a problem.

      Thus I have found several things that are important.

      A good alloy that casts very good quality bullets will reduce the necessity of anal bullet sorting (unless you really want the absolute best accuracy at the highest possible velocity) and that will WQ or HT well is the best choice. Using linotype or, preferably, #2 alloy is the best choice. If you want to use COWWs then fine, just use them to make #2 alloy. It will be worth the minimal extra effort and possible expense. Bearing surface of the bullet should be as extent as possible. This is the main reason I favor the Loverin designed 225438 and 225462 for use in .22 CFs. They especially perform better than most other designs sans a GC at lower velocities with lessor quality alloys such as range lead or plain COWWs.

      The softer lubes are better than the harder ones that require a heater. Lee’s TL when used as per the directions will work quite well from 300 fps up through 2000 fps. With a lubrasizer it’s very hard to go wrong with a quality NRA 50/50 lube. Lar’s (White Label) NRA lube is very good as is 2500+. I recommend either highly.

      GCs; If any reasonable accuracy is expected over 1200 – 1400 fps then GCs are needed. A quality GC is needed for best HV performance. Preferably the Hornady or Lyman GCs that crimp on are needed there. However, if you have a check maker that can handle .014 brass shim stock for making your own GCs they will fit well and perform almost as well. Lessor quality material such as beer cans for GCs is only ok. To me “ok” depends on what level of performance you want and I’ve seen over the last 10 – 12 year on CBF that a low expectation of performance is “ok” with a lot of people. You have to decide on what you want for a measure of performance. With .223 rifles having 12 or 14″ twist barrels and wanting 1.5 moa accuracy with 10 shot groups consistently at 2000+ fps a quality bullet of appropriate design cast of good alloy with a quality GC (commercial or self made) is necessary.

      I’ve shot a lot of .22 cal cast bullets sans the GC at 300 to 1400 fps with excellent results. I’ve found that if you want “standard” .22LR velocity less than 1100 fps then a softer alloy works best. Here COWWs with 2% tin added may be mixed with as much as a 30/70 (COWW/lead) with lead for excellent results, especially if shooting small game or vermin. The 225438 and 225462 are my favorite choices for this, especially in 12 and 14″ twist barrels. Bullseye is my powder of choice for these .22LR duplication loads. The 225107 is also an excellent choice here but due to its very short bearing surface in proportion to the tapered nose it works best with a GC, even at these lower velocities. With quality cast bullets (the 225462 especially) that are WQ’d or HT’d you can easily get some pretty decent accuracy upwards of 1400 +/- fps for closer range vermin extinction.

      Your TC Venture in .223 with the 12″ twist is an excellent rifle. It should shoot cast bullets quite well at 300 – 2000+ fps. However, going “cheap” most often means accepting less than optimal performance. How much does one really save shooting 2 – 3 shots to hit a target instead of just one shot? Many years ago when I got a .223 M700V with 12″ twist I thought I had the ultimate “cheap” cast bullet shooter. I cranked out a bunch of 225415s of WWs and loaded them up with several loads using minimal amounts of “cheap” powder. It was a very dismal failure. I quickly found that “cheap” was not worth the effort. While I still consider cast bullet shooting in the .223 to be quite inexpensive I’ve come to understand that if one wants to dance the band still needs to be paid. Today I can load 100 .223s with cast bullets (cast of #2 alloy with Hornady GCs) that give 1.5 moa accuracy for less out of my M700V, M70 XTR and TC Contender with 12″ twists and a Savage 24 with 14″ twist for less than I can buy (if I can find them) a box of 50 .22LRs. An additional benefit is that my cast loads give .22 RF Magnum performance. Dropping back to .22LR performance they are still not “cheap” but down right inexpensive.

      Larry Gibson

    • #26398
      Anonymous
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      You can use Unique or 2400 with a cast bullet
      on low pressure rounds if you use a case that has been fired in your rifle and don’t push the shoulder back when you resize you will get better sealing

    • #26417
      kungfustyle
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      thanks for helping out here. I think I may have my next project. I’m looking at the 225438 and I’m going to start saving my $$

    • #26453
      GhostHawk
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      “From my notes, use at your own risk. I make no claims for this data.

      Aug 13 2015 loaded 30 .223 55 gr bator bullet, no gas checks, 4.6 grains Red Dot. Should be just below 1400 fps.
      Shot at 50 yards, 5 rounds would have all been in a squirrels head.
      That is without gas checks, range lead with something just under 2% tin.

      For slightly faster loads I have gone up as much as 5.5 or 6 grains of Red Dot.
      Still much quieter than factory loads, my notes say hits 5″ below point of aim with scope sighted in for factory rounds at 100 yards.
      It was a lot less drop at 50.

      But as I said, Red Dot is not going to cycle your action.

      If it was me I’d turn the gas block off, shoot it like a straight pull bolt.

    • #26459
      chutesnreloads
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      Several years ago I experimented with “hornet” bullets and RedDot in .223.Still have a few loaded with 7 grains powder.The 5″ lower POA is pretty much what I got too.May have to revisit this concept with cast

    • #26463
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      Mr Kung full is shooting a bolt gun gas is a non-issue .

    • #26491
      GhostHawk
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      In that case there is no reason at all not to experiment with it a bit.

    • #26498
      ken campbell iowa
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      not to do with accuracy … but those 438-462 loads get wicked pretty fast once you go over 1300 fps … very hard on game …. i used to use a 438 hp at about 1700 to * vaporize * rats !!! in my 222 the 438 gc shot as well at 50 yd. as the 462 gc …

      ken

    • #26554
      kungfustyle
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      This looks like its going to be very fun…

    • #28261
      kungfustyle
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      Well here is the update and thank you for the input. I was at a bit of an estate sale and bought an RCBS 22-55 mold new for $40, at that price I had to. Cast up a bunch, its amazing how many you can get out of a pot of lead. I only cast up about 300 or so. Got the gas checks and RCBS top punch in and loaded up some with IMR 4198. All shot under an inch but the 14.5 went into one ragged hole. Don’t know how they will do out to 100 yards but now that I have the leads and the load, that’s my next mission.

    • #28267
      Anonymous
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      kungfustyle;n7348 wrote: Well here is the update and thank you for the input. I was at a bit of an estate sale and bought an RCBS 22-55 mold new for $40, at that price I had to. Cast up a bunch, its amazing how many you can get out of a pot of lead. I only cast up about 300 or so. Got the gas checks and RCBS top punch in and loaded up some with IMR 4198. All shot under an inch but the 14.5 went into one ragged hole. Don’t know how they will do out to 100 yards but now that I have the leads and the load, that’s my next mission.

      I checked my old rcbs cast bullet book the 22-055 fn with Imr4198 14.0 is the max load they list at 2132 FPS (no pressure load data given)

      Now you have do a work up at 100, 150 or 200 yds — the 14.5g load you shot must be nearing the upper limit for the 1/12 twist — but only testing will tell when the group opens up

    • #28269
      kungfustyle
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      I got the load data from the Lyman Cast Handbook. It lists pressure at 25,200 and it looks like it’s traveling at 2223 fps. That is with a universal receiver. I just looked the load up on a ballistics calculator and I have to try this load out at 100 and 200 yards.

    • #28270
      Goodsteel
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      This thread makes my fingertips tingle. I need to go load some 45-70 to feel right again.
      Heck with picking gas checks up with tweezers and loading with a visor; I want to be able to play Tiddlywinks with em!
      LOL!

    • #28806
      Anonymous
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      I have just recently started playing with cast checked r c b s 22-55 sp myself and being my first cast for a rifle adventure I’m not sure how it’s going to go . So I have tried a few with unique 5-8 gr but I am interested in trying a different powder . I wile back I went through a bunch of older post and remember Larry talking about imr 4350 in cast 223 recommended starting at 17 gr and working up to a 100 percent load capacity . If I am crazy just tell me but my thought is that this can get me the speed I am looking for with my cast bullets , . Now weather I can get a charge to group or not will be the next problem . I am going to try this in a savage m 12 with a 26 in 9 twist I know my twist is not a slow twist so to help out would a slower burning powder help .any help would be appreciated , good night

    • #28809
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      Based on my very limited experience with 222 and 223 ,6.8 as AR family cartridges ,I think you will find theM to be very efficient in their powder use. . My 222 went almost 2300 fps on Unique with a 50 gr Bator and the 223 goes over 2400 with H322 . The 6.8 I did sub tests in went all the way down to 3.5 gr of Unique under a 285-150 Hunter by NOE to get sub sonic ,. It’s actually a 7×6.8 .
      I need to get the 222 out and see if the new 22-55 NOEand see if it will shoot the 62 gr gem will shoot.

    • #28832
      Anonymous
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      Well I have loaded up a few to try , 10 of each with a charge of 18,19,20,21 of imr 4350 only way to find out I suppose , Try it Sunday .

    • #28870
      Anonymous
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      Well it didn’t go to badly the 20 gr load shows promise . I am going to run some more through the rifle to make shore I can do it again . Then I think I will try imr 4831 .

    • #28871
      Goodsteel
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      Good for you! The hardest thing in this game is getting out, busting a few caps, and writing down what you did so that you can compare long after the smoke clears.
      Fact is, you could do everything wrong and a bullet will still exit the muzzle and punch a hole in something downrange. It’s the data you gather, and the ability to change one thing at a time and dial in a prescription for your rifle that allows you to hit your target and work up some really sweet loads for each particular rifle and still be able to say you saved a buck doing it.
      Keep it up!

    • #28887
      Anonymous
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      Thankyou Goodsteal for the encouragement . I have just begun my casting for the longer guns , I have truly enjoyed working through cast in my handguns . I have slowly picked up small tidbits of information forme more experienced casters and it has led me to believe it is possible to shoot cast bullets well at a respectful velocity . And I would especially like to thank Larry and yourself as well as many others for sharing . I am Following the breadcrumbs . Good morning

    • #28888
      GhostHawk
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      My experiences are not necessarily those of the average caster.

      I have had fair luck making centerfire .22 via .223 with the Bator bullet, no gas check and 4.5 or thereabouts of Red Dot.
      Speeds are similar to .22lr, report about the same, hits a bit harder because of heavier bullet.

      Accuracy was very good at 50, at 100 y still better than most .22lr out there.

      Boolits were range lead with 1.5 to 1.8% tin added for better fill. Lube was Ben’s Liquid Lube with 2% added Carnuba wax.

      I also have a little hotter load that has the same boolits but with gas checks and about 7 grains of Red Dot.

      Good Luck out there!

    • #28896
      Anonymous
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      Ghosthawk that was my plan sort of except starting with unique instead of red dot , but I will probably try all kind of crazy idea’s . I expected trouble with gas checks( because I have never used them ) and so far it has went pretty smooth , I am not so concerned with speed although I want some I would rather have hits on target . May I ask do you have trouble with such small powder charge in the case as in uniform ignition .

    • #28899
      GhostHawk
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      No sir, I have loaded small loads of Red Dot in a wide variety of rifle calibers and I have yet to see any issues whatsoever.
      I believe that it does help that Red Dot is fluffy, bulks up well in cases.

      I can not think of a single instance where I had a hangfire, a misfire, a stuck bullet or even in most cases a boolit not on target.
      I say most cases as I have an WWII era Winchester 94 which seems have been shot out. I have trouble getting those on target at 25y.

      Your mileage may vary, but I have had very good and inexpensive shooting with Red Dot in everything from .223 to 7.62×39, 7.62x54r, .300BO, .357 mag and .357 mag in .360dw cases, and .444 marlin. P{lus a variety of Pistol calibers.

      The .444 is my biggest load with 10-13 grains under a .430 310 gr round nose flat point with gas check.

      I see no reason the unique would not work. FYI Red Dot light loads most likely will not cycle a Semi Auto, but in a bolt action, or single shot they are wonderfully efficient, quiet, accurate loads. Last, if max listed load is in the 7-8 grains range my best accuracy has always been in the 4.5 to 4.6 grains area. That just seems to be the sweet spot for most of my calibers.

    • #28989
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      I tried some red dot in groups of 10 starting with 5 gr and going up in 1/2 gr increments to 7 gr , started out ok but the faster they went the bigger the group . So my next run will go the other way I suppose , the good news is the 20 gr charge of imr 4350 held up I believe I may be able to keep them in 2 in 100 yards with a little more tinkering . We shall see . Worst case I’m getting some l c brass worked on , and trigger time .

    • #29009
      GhostHawk
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      ROFLMAO

      There is a reason most of my calibers that I load with Red Dot use the same 4.5 – 4.6 grain load.

      I am not sure exactly why, but I am sure it works.

      I suspect if you want to run faster you will end up shooting jacketed to get them to hang together and still have decent accuracy.
      I can’t prove it, but it leans that way with my setup.

      Boolit alloy could have a big impact here, 2% tin and enough antimony to get hardness up over 15-16 could make a big difference.

      For me it was not really worth it, once I found I could load the bator bullet with no gas check, lubed with Ben’s Liquid lube, over an inexpensive load of Red Dot and get reasonable accuracy I had my .22lr replacement. So I loaded up a bunch and quit trying and moved onto another caliber.

      Currently playing with a 9mm luger in a 18″ single shot Handi rifle, custom stub job.
      Normal cast 9mm looked like a shotgun pattern. Cheap federal fmj’s shoot great, well inside golfball size group at 50 feet.
      Yesterday loaded 50 .358 125 gr cast boolits over 4.5 grains of Red Dot, slightly compressed. These are marked as rifle only rounds.

      The question is if they will shoot.

      If they don’t they become fodder for the 9mm Hipoint carbines which eat anything and walks and trots like a trooper.

      But if I can get a nice tight group I think that little 9mm will make a great little walking round gun. Recently hit the jackpot at my local pawn shop.
      2 nice slings with hardware and a nice old style red dot (longer smaller tube) the plus is those seem to have a much smaller MOA dot being a 1-2 moa dot where most of the inexpensive sights are 4 – 5 moa dots.

      Lightweight, carry’s easy on the shoulder, comes up fast, slip left arm into the sling and it locks up solid offhand.

      Anyway take a good look in that 4.5 to 4.6 grains of Red Dot area. You should find what you are looking for.

    • #29091
      Anonymous
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      I have been working up some brass , as soon as I finish I will try out red dot going from 5 gr down to see if it continues to tighten them up . But I am playing with imr 4350 for a little more speed , I believe there is a point where they just go wild if run to fast , and I crossed it a few times already . Only time will tell .

    • #29092
      Goodsteel
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      Do let us know what you come up with. Good stuff here.

    • #29093
      Rattlesnake Charlie
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      Red Dot vs Unique

      In this application, someone has already stated that they prefer Red Dot. So do I for many applications. Why might it be better here?

      Volumetric Density (VMD) is how many cc per grain of powder.
      .1092 for Unique
      .1413 for Red Dot

      Assume we consider 6 gr of Unique and 5 gr of Red Dot to get close to the same velocity. Multiply the charge weights by the VMD.
      6 gr of Unique would occupy 0.6552 cc.
      5 gr of Red Dot would occupy 0.7065 cc.

      That is a 7.9% increase in volume. And, often a higher loading density (the powder space if filled fuller) results in more consistent burn. IMO, Red Dot is also easier to ignite and cleaner burning.

      I know, just my opinion. But, maybe food for thought.

    • #29119
      Anonymous
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      Many more tests to be run , this should keep me busy for quite a while . Assorted charge weights , multiple powders , lubes , and then alloys , almost forgot about primers . Lots of fun with trigger time . Glad I only have the one ribs 22-55 sp or it would get more complicated . Have a nice weekend

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