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    • #30143
      lar45
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      Hi Guys, I’ve been playing with a new lube recently and find myself wondering, just how bad are everyone’s 1st shot flyers?
      I’ve got a 30-06XCB that Tim built and I’m shooting the 165gn 30XCB bullet seated to 3.055″, and I’m using H4895. Oh and my front door range is 85yds.
      This is my first 10 shot target of the day, the 1st shot is on the lower right. My first target yesterday was about the same.

    • #30144
      Scharfschuetze
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      That’s not unusual. Keep your records and confirm that it consistently ends up at 5:00. You can then compensate for it.

      Cold bore zeros are important to military marksmen and time is spent recording it in a sniper’s log book to confirm it. While not all rifles display the anomaly some do.

    • #30146
      Sgt. Mike
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      Glenn fire a twenty shot group and see if it fills in the flier. When I fired a thirty shot group the flier became part of the group quickly.

      Just a thought your mileage may not be the same.

    • #30148
      Goodsteel
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      It’s very dependent on the rifle. Most times the first shot is only .5-1.5 inches from the outside edge of the group, but there are some situations where the first shot is further. I always blamed the lube. If I leave lube in the barrel, the first shot is fairly close to the group, like you demonstrate above. If I clean the barrel thoroughly, that first shot doesn’t have the drag and pile-up forces that lube produces, and it usually goes quite a bit away from group.

    • #30149
      Rattlesnake Charlie
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      When I used to shoot muzzle loader rifle competition, I always fired a fouling shot after swabbing between targets/groups. Common practice. That first shot from a cold/clean barrel is often outside of the remainder of the group.

    • #30151
      Sgt. Mike
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      Glenn my memory fails me what was the twist on that Brux I want to say 1-14″ am I right?

    • #30152
      lar45
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      Yes, it is 1-14″
      I think I’ll try with my other lubes to have a comparison.

    • #30157
      Larry Gibson
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      lar45

      All the above replies are very good and accurate; my 2 cents worth follows.

      Your group is very typical with the 1st shot being a flyer. 1st shot and sometimes 2nd shot flyers are predominant and almost a sure bet when a clean barrel is used. I’ve found that over the years having shot many thousands such rifle cast bullet groups with many different cast bullets and different lubes at velocities from 800 to 3000+ fps. The reason is it takes one or two shots at least to uniformly coat (foul if you will) the bore with lube.

      If the bore is coated and allowed to cool some lubes and powder residue will also harden in the bore causing a 1st shot flyer. This is especially so in cold weather.

      This is why I always shoot a “fouler” before each group test.

      On a practical side it should also be noted that one must have a rifle and load combination that is accurate enough and the shooter must also be shooting accurately enough. The average rifle with issue (milsurp) or factory iron sights is probably not accurate enough. Also it may not matter. Those who just load for “blasting” or casual shooting at close range won’t know the difference and if you were hunting out to 100 or even 150 yards it’s doubtful the 1st flyer would account for a miss. That probably accounts for 95%+ of the CBF shooters. On the other hand to most all CBA shooters and those interested in real accuracy with cast bullets it does matter.

      Larry Gibson

    • #30159
      Sgt. Mike
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      Glenn
      like I said earlier to you on the phone the Old 1903 and 721 (before re-barreling) in 30-06 would put the first shot almost exactly where yours did, with cast loads.

    • #30161
      lar45
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      So, if you guys are experiencing the 1st shot flyer… How far out does it go?
      Just for comparison. On other forums, I’ve read about the 1st shot going 8-10″ out and barely on the paper…

    • #30163
      Harter
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      lar45;n9844 wrote: So, if you guys are experiencing the 1st shot flyer… How far out does it go?
      Just for comparison. On other forums, I’ve read about the 1st shot going 8-10″ out and barely on the paper…

      I had 1 go about 30 degrees toward 7:30 once , missed the 50 backer by 20 yds or so. Typically on a cast oriented bbl it is within 2″ of expected poi

    • #30166
      Sgt. Mike
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      lar45;n9844 wrote: So, if you guys are experiencing the 1st shot flyer… How far out does it go?
      Just for comparison. On other forums, I’ve read about the 1st shot going 8-10″ out and barely on the paper…

      Never that far Glenn usually about what you have, sometimes twice the distance at the same angle usually (8 outta 10) that being from a clean cold bore.

    • #30172
      Goodsteel
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      I agree with Sarge. Exactly what I have seen. It’s odd to have the first one land more than 2″ from the group abd I dare say, might point to serious loading errors.
      I mean it’s not hard to see how, if you actually shoot 5″ groups, but count the clusters, one could get a “cold bore flier” that’s not with the group, but there’s probably a whole bunch of “fliers” that are conveniently forgotten as the group is produced.

    • #30175
      Larry Gibson
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      With “standard” cast loads using quality cast bullets, quality 50/50 or other soft lubes and proper loads the cold, clean bore flyer is seldom more than 2″ away from the group. Most often its less than 1″. That’s at 100 yards.

      When pushing the velocity with any twist or bullet the cold, clean bore 1st shot has been as much as 15″ off the group in my testing. Those loads general take 2 – 3 fouling shots before the group starts.

      With cold but fouled bores many times the 1st shot goes to group or not more than 1″ out. However, if the ambient temp is below 50 degrees and/or the rounds are conditioned to the ambient temp many times the 1st shot out of a fouled bore can be as much as 6″ out of the group. If below freezing and the barrel and ammunition are at ambient temp it’s a real crap shoot and as Scharf mentions only by shooting the same rifle and load in those conditions will you know.

      Too many variables for a hard and fast rule.

      Larry Gibson

    • #30176
      Sgt. Mike
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      I typed a huge essay of a response on this. But, I will choose to hold off until Glenn (Lars45, the OP) post some more on what he was doing with the new lube development. From a text he and I was sharing might bring something to light, on what he was seeing.

    • #30177
      lar45
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      Thanks for the responces, all the info is great and appreciated.
      Sorry about the delay in getting back here, life happens lol.
      Anyway, in talking with Sgt. Mike he suggested that I try sizing to a smaller diameter. So I broke out the .310″ die and the .309″ die and sized and lubed 10 of each size.
      I measured the temp of t he barrel at 73F with a lazer thermometer.
      The .310 target was the first of the day. The 1st shot seemed to go about 3/4 of an inch to the right just as before.
      The .310 target gave a larger group than the .311″.
      I let the gun sit for a little over 2 hours until the temp was down to 74F, then shot the .309″ group. This one showed a lot of promise with 5 shots going into a ragged hole.
      This is the .311 vs the .310

      This is the .309″

      I know it’s only 10 shots in each target, but I’m kind of limited to how many bullets i have. I’m working out of what Tim left behind, as I don’t have the 30XCB mold yet. I thought that I had bought one, but can’t find it anywhere.

      I’m working on a new lube, a softer, no heat, version of Carnauba Red, or 2700. I thought that I’d try some high velocity loads with it first to see how it behaved, which got me off on a tanget of 1st shot flyers…

    • #30188
      Goodsteel
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      Ill see if I can get my pot going soon and hook you up with more.
      I havnt cast a single bullet since July! Longest dry spell in 6 years!

    • #30190
      Larry Gibson
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      Lar45

      Might try your 2500+. It’s my go to HV lube.

      Question; are you cleaning between groups for a cold clean bore test or just letting the barrel cool between groups?

      Larry Gibson

    • #30192
      lar45
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      I’m just letting it cool between groups. I thought it might make it easier to spot any leading build up.
      I’ll give it a good scrub and compare with 2500+

    • #30260
      lar45
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      Okay, I finally got a break in my Honey-do’s…
      Here is a clean cold bore, with the 30XCB sized to .309″ with 2500+, and loaded over 38gns of H4895 in my 30-06XCB rifle that Tim built.
      I adjusted the scope left .5″ and down 1″ so I could have a clean target to aim at. Shooting off the bags I could keep the crosshairs steady between the 1 and 0. The Timney trigger is a little on the heavy side. I’d like to get in and adjust it, but I’m afraid that I’d mess up the torque on the action screws.
      Here is the target with all of the chrono data above and where each shot hit marked on the right target.
      The first shot went high and left a little. 6 shots went in to the ragged hole.

      This is a closer pic of the target.

    • #30261
      Goodsteel
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      Ain’t it just delicious to shoot ragged holes with cast bullets?
      Har!
      Good shooting Glenn!

    • #31639
      Chris C
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      I was running some Depth of Seating tests yesterday and ran into similar problems. Here’s an example.

      I shot 5 targets in total. This one was the 4th. Tim said it was because I wasn’t cleaning the barrel between targets. I think his reasoning for that opinion is the first shot on all my targets is ringed by a dark black ring…………I’m guessing a purge of lube left over from the last round.

    • #31640
      skeettx
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      AND for my Meat Guns, I sight them in during early Fall and do NOT clean them till I am finished using them.
      BUT I do live in Amarillo, Texas and the normal humidity is LOW
      Mike

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